Inside MUFON: Investigating the UFO Mystery with Ron James

In this episode, we sit down with Ron James from MUFON to explore how UFO sightings are investigated, what makes a case credible, and why the conversation around UAPs continues to evolve. We also dig into disclosure, public perception, and what it really means to study the unknown with seriousness and care.

From eyewitness reports to the bigger questions surrounding the phenomenon, this conversation goes beyond speculation and into the work of separating signal from noise. If you’re interested in UFOs, disclosure, and the people trying to make sense of it all, this is an episode you won’t want to miss.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:54

All right, everybody, welcome back to another episode of Obscurocast. So today we have another really auspicious guest. We've had a couple on the show previously that have sort of been really interesting conversations. And we have another one today that's probably, I wouldn't say tops them all, but is on the same sort of same sort of tip as what we've had so far. And obviously, I'm joined by my co-conspirator and co-host Dan O'Neill. How are you doing this evening, sir? I'm doing good. How are you? I'm doing all right. Like I said, we have a really auspicious guest today. Today we're joined by Ron James from Mufon. He's part of one of the most recognized organizations in the world when it comes to investigating UFO and UAP reports. Ron has spent years helping bring structure, credibility, and discipline to a topic that is often surrounded by speculation, lots of skepticism, and a lot of mystery. So in this conversation, we're going to dig into how Mufon investigates sightings, what makes a crash credible, and why the conversation around UAPs has changed so drastically and dramatically in the recent years. So before we get into that, um, we're going to obviously plug our socials. So at obscurecast is uh where you can find us on pretty much every major major social media platform. We also have a link tree, so it's linktr.ee backs or forward slash obscurecast. You can check that out for clips, updates, and new episodes from from us. And then you can also follow MuFon on YouTube at Mufon HQ, on Instagram at MutualUFO Network, on Facebook at Move on Mutual UFO Network, and on X at Mutual UFO Network as well. So let's get it into the conversation, sort of sort of crack the can on this can of worms. Ron, welcome to the show, sir. We're we're very excited to have you. Thanks for having me on. Absolutely. So we're gonna sort of get into your background. So sort of tell us how you got into Mufon, sort of what drug you to the MUFON organization and sort of how you got your start uh in the UAP and UA in UFO space. Give us a little background, if you could.

SPEAKER_02 2:40

Well, I've been making UFO-related content, and my video production company was doing a lot of recording and live streaming of UFO events. I started off with Steve Bassett and his ex-conference. Uh, I did the citizen hearing on disclosure and things like that. Paula Harris, a well-known person in the field, actually hired me to MC one of her conferences in Laughlin, Nevada. And I was backstage with Jaime Masan and the then director of MUFON at the time. And Jaime was live streaming the conference down to Mexico, and he was telling the director of MUFON that they should be more involved in streaming media. And I was already involved in the streaming media business, having owned a couple of online TV channels. And so I proposed to them that we would uh create Mufon Television. And so we made a joint venture agreement, which made us partners, and I set up Mufon Television. It's the world's largest archive of commercial free UFO-related material, and it's uh subscription based, or you get it if you join Mufon. And at that point, I was just doing MUFON Television and continuing to do my thing in the field. But when uh Mufon got new leadership, they invited me to take over as their media relations director, which uh basically it's it's a very fun job. I don't get paid for it, but I don't mind. I I get to work behind the scenes on shows like Ancient Aliens and and things like that. So it's it's pretty fun.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

Whenever the vast majority, from what Dan and I understand, is that Mufon is more or less, I think you sort of touched on it and sort of going through your background, how you got started than the organization. It's all volunteer-based and donation-based, is that correct?

SPEAKER_02 4:12

It really is. And you know, there's thousands of members all over the world. There's only a couple of paid positions. They have the uh the director who gets paid because that's a full-time job, and then some of the office help. Everybody else in MUFON works for free. And I I can't really I can't emphasize that enough because there's literally thousands of super dedicated people all over the world that are doing this because they care about the cause. And they're, you know, they make their own sacrifices and and they spend their own money and they dedicate their time. And it's it is truly one of the outstanding organizations in the field.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

So I was watching, I know we're gonna touch on your documentary. Um I know you did Accidental Truth, but you also have one coming out, Accidental Truth Next Beyond UFO Disclosure. That's really interesting. You talked to some really key people and you know, David Groosh and and um sort of sort of blanking on his uh Lou Elisendo and a bunch of really, really auspicious people in the space of UAP and UFO research and you know, crash retrieval and that kind of thing. So how did you first get involved into the space? Like I know you sort of joined Mufon and sort of had that anchoring, but what was sort of your what was sort of your grit to get into the UAP and UFO research as a whole? Like was it just what did Mufon sort of strike a chord with you? How did that start?

SPEAKER_02 5:23

No, Mufon came years later. Um, I think back in uh it was back in 2006 or seven that I met Steve Bassett, and I'd always been interested in the UFO topic. I'm interested in life after death, the nature of reality. I read a book called Seth Speaks when I was like 13, and I could tell you no 13-year-old should read that book unless they want their entire reality to shift. But and that kind of set me off on a hey, you know, this is this world isn't this life is a mystery, and I sure would like to figure some of it out. So Steve Bassett is uh the creator of Paradigm Research Group, the lobbying group in Washington that's been around for a long time lobbying Congress about UFOs. And so he came through Sedona where I was living at the time, and when he found out I had a video production company, he invited me to live stream his ex-conference in Washington, D.C. And so it was then that I went to Washington, D.C. to do this. I think it was 2008, and all of a sudden I got to meet all these guys that I'd seen on television. It's like, whoa, there's Nick Pope, the rest of his soul, and there's Stanton Friedman, same thing. And George Knapp and George Norrie are there, and all these other people that I had known from the television shows and known from the books, Richard Dolan was there. All of a sudden are there, and I'm and I'm meeting them and I'm hanging out with them and I'm interviewing them. And I realized that after getting to know these people personally, that this is the biggest deception ever put forth on humanity, and these guys are the ones at the forefront trying to do something about it. And none of them were doing it for money, none of them are doing it for fame. They're all doing it because they just feel like they need to make a contribution. And so I decided at that point that the UFO question was something I was gonna tackle in any original work that I was able to do.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

Yeah, so I I I mean, you've obviously had you obviously have a big track record. You named a bunch of really auspicious people, really big hitters in the space of UFO and UP research. Like I said, you know, you you had you it looks like through the documentary, you had, you know, maybe not everybody that we sort of mentioned as far as the big hitters, but Lou Alessindo's definitely in the documentary that's the new one. That was pretty it was a pretty crazy interview from his perspective and that kind of thing. So how as you've met these people and sort of gotten into this space, has your perspective changed over time? Has it sort of stayed the same if you've always been a skeptic? Is there a tipping point in in the the time that you've been doing this that's sort of pushed you even forward more far farther down the rabbit hole? How has your perspective sort of changed over time?

SPEAKER_02 7:52

Well, you know, there's there's things that we can speculate about and there's things that we can prove. And this field has always been a little short of actual definitive physical proof. But when you put the case together and you evaluate all of the evidence as if you were sitting in front of a a jury. As a matter of fact, we did that with the citizen hearing on disclosure. Steve Bassett put that together and I videotaped it and live streamed it and produced it, and we literally sat sitting ex members of Congress in front of the whole field of people who testified to them as if it was a congressional hearing and to get that guilty verdict of yes, you did this stuff exists. And uh it was a heck of a it was a heck of a accomplishment at the time. It really was. And the the evidence there, even though a lot of it is circumstantial, it just adds up and adds up and adds up to the point where these things that we're hearing rumors about in the mainstream, you know, reverse engineering programs, the recovery of craft, uh multi-different non-human intelligence interacting with us, all of this stuff is is undoubtedly comes from some level of truth. And speculation runs rampant. It's easy to get to take it and go, oh yeah, and by the way, there's all this other stuff happening. But at the very, very least, there is pretty definitive evidence that we've recovered non-human craft, that non-human intelligence has had its fingerprints on humanity from day one of our written history. And you just you get to a point where you just can't debate this stuff anymore.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

Yeah, I mean, like I said, you have, and we sort of had a talk off here when we were originally talking with you and sort of setting things up for the episode, that there is a lot of information, I guess, that we're getting, but you guys, uh and you guys being Mufon and you personally, the role of Mufon is to sort of debunk not only what we're hearing from the mainstream, but also extrapolating on what we know from you know, firsthand accounts and that kind of thing to sort of fill the gap. So do you sort of think that's what Mufon is responsible for? And even more so, how do you sort of see Mufon's role today? Like what if you had to write a mission statement just off the cuff off of your the off the top of your head, what would you say Mufon's role is? Is that sort of do I sort of pigeonhole it to that that that that idea is?

SPEAKER_02 10:04

Well, Mufon has a a mission statement, and that is defined as the uh the scientific exploration of UFOs for the the scientific understanding of the UFO phenomenon for the betterment of humanity. And what that means is that you know, we go out, we actually apply a certain level of scientific rigor as best you can with a civilian organization to everything we investigate, and that includes the experiencer phenomenon. MUFON is cut is on the cutting edge right now of getting to the bottom of what's happening to these people that say they've had encounters with non-human intelligence. And so we've got the experiencer resource team where we help people find community and and and analyze what has happened to them and help them to understand. And then of course we're doing the cutting edge research all the way across the board. They MUFON's the only organization that has literal field investigators that will go actually investigate a case. So it you know, if if it warrants it, we can't investigate every single case that comes through. Of course. But if it warrants it, we have actual trained investigators literally all over the world that will go and and and research the case and and then the MUFON people will come to a conclusion if they can about what that was. And so there's no other organization in the world that does what what MUFON does, and even to this day. And so, you know, it's really important work.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

Yeah, so you guys are like I said, you guys are on the cutting edge. And Dan, I know that you have been a little bit more in tune with sort of the government release of all of this stuff. You you told me that, you know, within the last, I would say, three to six months, they've had three or four hearings and there's more scheduled, obviously, to debunk some of what's been going on and that kind of thing. So I I know you have a multitude of the evidence that they've released and sort of been chomping at the bit for us to sort of get into. Do you want to sort of speak to that and just see where Ron sort of fits on all the congressional hearing stuff?

SPEAKER_01 11:56

Well, yeah. And and also I wanted to say, like, uh Ron, I've been a member of MUFON since 2020. My dad was a MUFON member for a long time before he passed. He got me into it. And then as far as the field investigator stuff, you know, I've I've looked at that. What does that entail? Like how how does somebody become a field investigator? Do they have to have a certain background or is it kind of open to anybody who wants to do that?

SPEAKER_02 12:19

Well, they have to have the desire to want to make the commitment. It's not a we do have a field investigator training process. So, you know, it starts off with people. MUFON is open to anybody that wants to just be more involved in a community of people around this topic. So if you want to join MUFON just because you want to attend local events or you want to find other like-minded people to hang out with, membership is very inexpensive and people can do that. But if you want to move on and actually become a field investigator and go out and do cases and be assigned that stuff, we have a training manual and a training protocol. And once you complete that, you will be assigned to work under your closest state director within your MUFON organization, or if you're international, your international director. And you'll actually get to go out and and meet people and take witness reports and do research and real investigations. And uh, you know, it's really there's different levels for everybody, but the uh the field investigator is it's the real deal. You get you get trained. MUFON got its field investigator training manual, its first iteration from the Air Force when they finished Project Blue Book. The Air Force actually handed Mufon the their their training materials and said, here you go. And so uh, you know, the same tradition of Project Blue Book, for what that's worth, lives on in the MUFON process.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

That's awesome. That's all I kind of I kind of was wondering if if that with the Project Blue Book, because obviously with Dr. Heinek being a part of MUFON and everything like that, and also obviously being part of Project Blue Book, I was wondering if that's kind of how that happened. So you answered a question there.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

Yeah, so to s to sort of piggyback off what Dan's talking about is like, you know, there's obviously a lot of firsthand accounts that could be, you know, that they they could be extrapolated and that kind of thing. So like as far as credible cases, sort of piggybacking on what Dan was talking about, the field of investigation stuff. What does a credible case look like to you guys? Like how, how do you sort of dictate, yeah, we're gonna send somebody out to this site, this is a credible source, this is a credible site, and that kind of thing. How do you sort of dictate and sort of work through that murkiness?

SPEAKER_02 14:27

Yeah, well, you know, evidence is obviously key. Some of the things that we look for is multiple eyewitnesses from different, you know, people that don't know each other all describing the same thing. That means of course it has to get through the filter of because we have a way of checking flight records and and aviation records, and of course, Starlink. Whenever they launch a Starlink, there's, you know, tons of reports, and it's usually just Starlink. So at the end of the day, there's the uh multiple witness reports, any kind of evidence, photographic uh or actual physical evidence in some cases. Somebody just calls up and says, Hey, I saw a UFO, we their report is still valuable. We don't want people to think that that we're going to ignore you, but we will digest that into our database and add it in. But unless there's something a little more extraordinary about the report, chances are we're not going to be able to send a full-blown investigative team to talk to you. But yeah, multiple witnesses, any kind of solid eviden evidentiary base. It could be we've had people that had said that a craft landed in their farm and and that there was actual uh physical traces in their meadow, so to speak. Those are the kind of cases that that we'll go for and investigate personally. And then when it comes to the experiencers, we have a t a lot of experiencers that report their their encounters to MUFON. And what's interesting about that is that we have an entire process of helping to evaluate the their case. You know, and in in when it comes to the experiencer phenomenon, these are people that don't have anybody to talk to a lot of times about any of this, and they they have to deal with ridicule and the effect that the situations had on their lives. It's not an easy thing to deal with. And so we have a uh we have an intake platform where we're able to actually evaluate the psychology of the experiencer. You know, people like to say, well, these people are all crazy. But what we've found is that there's some very consistent stories that will come from the genuine experiencer, and the number of people out there that just want to make up a story and say they had something happen to them is almost it it's not a big thing. It's a it's it's a tiny, tiny sliver of those who report these kind of experiences. So what once we absorb somebody in through the ERT and and you know they can become a MUFON member and they can find support groups and everything else, then depending on their case, that that that might get a certain amount of attention depending on what they're they're bringing to the table. So yeah, there's definite criteria that warrant an actual field investigation, and there's definite criteria that warrant a deeper dive into experience or reports.

SPEAKER_00 17:02

So essentially you guys are basically an open ear for pretty much anybody and everybody that has had an experience, but you also have some sort of criteria or regimen that you run them through to make sure it's a credible source you guys don't have on your face, literally taking every Tom, Dick, and Harry that has a story about one of these things.

SPEAKER_02 17:25

And so that doesn't bother us. We're not we're not out there to drink the Kool-Aid and and come up with you know trying to make people believe stuff. We're here to get to the bottom of it in a rigorous manner. And we're certainly not afraid of finding logical explanations for stuff. In fact, we're we're we're happier when we do. It's less work.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

But that's what makes you guys so credible too, though, honestly. Like, I was gonna say, yeah, it's just yeah, if you guys are willing to say, hey, this is not UAP, this is uh, you know, this is a plan or this is you know explainable.

SPEAKER_00 17:59

So well, it's also by reputation, too, is that you guys have your reput you have a reputation that you've built out of finding these credible sources and these credible witnesses and these credible stories. You don't want to sort of backtrack and go the other way and pull it in reverse, you want to keep pushing forward. So it only makes sense for you guys to be very selective about the people that you talk to, the sites that you go to, the stories that you guys tell. It makes it makes sense. It it just makes sense from a from from a uh from a reputation standpoint for sure.

SPEAKER_02 18:26

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, there's a lot of groups out there all of a sudden that have popped up in this new age of UFO popularity that are trying to, you know, telling people to report their UFOs to them. And some of them are for-profit entities that have set up to to capitalize on the whole thing. So Mufon says, no matter where you decide to report your UFO sightings, please report them to Mufon as well because we have the largest and oldest database. And when the UFO reports get diluted because they're going to five or six different groups, then there is no longer a central database to do solid analysis. And so, you know, as as many people that are out there looking for your UFO reports, Mufon is probably the first place that you should submit them.

SPEAKER_00 19:09

Yeah, that makes sense. So with just to sort of dive deeper into what makes a credible source for you guys. So, like if you guys had these millions upon millions upon millions of stories coming through and first first sight or uh first person sightings and that kind of thing, the criteria without going too deep into it, so sort of give me like, you know, the roundabout way that you guys sort of go through something that is credible, but it doesn't really have any meat behind it, worth you know, worth diving deeper into versus something that you guys do go after. Is there parameters that you can sort of speak to? Not necessarily getting too deep into the woods, but is you know, is there a criteria you can sort of share with us just as sort of a formality to make sure that the credible source is exactly what it what it's supposed to be, which is crazy?

SPEAKER_02 19:53

Well, yeah, again, it's when it comes to the experiencers, we have an intake form that will give us a pretty good idea of the psychological capacity of the of the witness, and that that helps us. And then on the actual UFO reports, like I said a little while ago, the different things that make the case stand out, like solid visual or video evidence, uh physical evidence, multiple reports from different people that don't know each other all reporting the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

I was gonna say that would probably have to be the home run for me as you have different people experiencing the almost the exact same thing, minus like two or three percent of the story. That's gotta be a huge win for you guys.

SPEAKER_02 20:27

And then we have to have the uh the the reality of whether or not the uh sorry, I lost my train of thought. Then we have to have the reality of whether or not the the story can be corroborated by something that we already know happened. So in other words, if somebody calls us up and says, hey, you know, the a hundred people in Charlotte, North Carolina call us up and say, hey, we saw this UFO, and then we cross-reference it and the Air Force was doing exercises or Starlink was launching a satellite, no matter how many witnesses there are to that, we find the logical explanation and the whole thing gets written off as that. But we still will take the report and and announce the conclusion. So sometimes sometimes no matter how much of that evidence is there, there's preceding evidence that that makes it so that you can easily get to the bottom of it, but a lot of times you can't.

SPEAKER_00 21:15

Yeah, with the with the with the move on thing as well as the information that you guys gather, I think watching you know the new documentary that you guys have coming out, which is obviously the Actional Truth Network. It's already out. Oh, it's already out? Okay.

SPEAKER_02 21:26

Yeah, it came out on June 2nd.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

I I know we got a pretty we got like a sneak peek that you had, but it actually came out in on the second. I do remember that seeing that now in the trailer, which we're gonna play for you guys so you guys can hear the audio. So you you obviously talk to a bunch of heavy hitters, you know, David Gruz, you talked to Lou Alessendo, you know, all of these people that are sort of trying to break the mold and break the barrier and all of this stuff that's going on, with you know, they and it also gets really dicey because you've had certain people within the documentary that we watched, Dan and I watched, it's these these people. People are receiving death threats, they're receiving all sorts of this, you know, blowback from trying to just merely tell the truth from your guys' point of view. How do you guys sort of handle that when you're interviewing somebody? Is it's gotta be nerve-wracking, not only for the people that are disclosing the information, but you guys putting sort of yourselves on the chopping block as well as trying to find out and pushing that narrative. So, in the wake of all of the public interest and disclosure, what do you think people are still missing from the interviews that you guys have done? Because, like I said, Dan and I both watched the documentary, so we really appreciate you giving us access to that beforehand. What do you think people are still missing that they aren't able to sort of disclose in these hearings and that kind of thing under, you know, the the threat of being their careers being destroyed? There's even been like death threats and stuff. I think David Groosh and like a couple people alluded to that. So how do you guys sort of navigate that?

SPEAKER_02 22:49

Well, you know, it's interesting because I think that people are watching this unfold in Washington, D.C. and they're thinking, ooh, this is great, we're gonna get disclosure. And I am not in that camp at all. I think that in the first accidental truth movie, which people can see for free on YouTube right now, we illustrated the fact that what it started in 2017 is a repeat performance of stuff that we were getting back in the 50s, almost to the letter. We had the Robertson panel, we had General Samford come out for the Air Force talking about uh advanced technology that wasn't ours in the skies. We had Don Keogh with a military background talking about crash recovery and reverse engineering. Uh we had we had Project Blue Book. All of this stuff happened a long time ago. And what we're seeing today is basically a version of that. And the the you know, the end game of it back then was to discredit the whole thing. And when we have these so-called whistleblowers that are coming out, my my response to that is that if you have to get what you are going to say cleared by the Department of Defense before you say it, you are not a whistleblower. You are an instrument of a narrative. That's a very good point. So we have all these guys like David and Chris Mellon and Lou Elizondo. I am personally in the camp that believes that in 2017 we saw the beginning of what was going to be an organized rollout of certain information. Because at some point, you know, we we do deserve the truth, but the people that have been keeping it from us for as long as they have are in no position to tell us everything. They they in some cases they don't know the whole story, and in other cases the things that they have done to cover this up is literally a crime against humanity, and they just can't do this in such a way that it continues to be feasible. So yeah, we're getting an organized rollout of something. I don't believe it's gonna be disclosures per se. In other words, we're not gonna find the whole truth. We'll be given a certain amount of information, but they're never gonna tell us everything that went on in the last hundred years. Aaron Powell Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:54

And the congressional hearings that they were talking about, I I know that, you know, David as well as Lou were also talking about that they've you know, Lou alluded to in the documentary that we watched, the newest one that you have, he alluded to signing a contract or some sort of NDA three years prior to this, that he wasn't able to talk about it in a public forum. So there were multiple instances in the interviews and the testimony and the and the congressional hearings that you guys put into the documentary where they're talking about, oh yeah, we can talk about that, but I have to go into a skiff in order to talk about it. I can't talk about it publicly. So that that was kind of weird where you're sort of alluding to the fact that there's more information, but there's no way to sort of get it out in a legalized fashion for everybody to understand it. So that sort of alludes to what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_02 25:38

That's exactly right. And the uh and for people that are familiar with the past history, excuse me, this all happened before. We there was a time in the in the 50s when the UFO topic was just as hot as it is now. There were tons of documentaries, there are hunt literally hundreds of books written about the topic. The the whole thing swept through the culture, and then it kind of went silent for a little while, and then it resurges and it goes silent. And each time we get a little bit more toward the toward some kind of definitive disclosure, but we never really get there. And now it's been a decade since Lou Elizondo stepped onto the stage, and we haven't really gotten anything. We've gotten these new releases from the government with these files, and you know, they're inconclusive. A lot of them have been in the public domain already. They're just not they're not impressive, and they're certainly not the truth. It's like the people that know what's going on with this, the whole truth about the topic, and the people that are in charge of releasing certain information, I don't think they're talking to each other.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that. As far as what we saw in the documentary, like I like I said, you you guys sort of dive into a who's who of people, you know. You have, you know, uh Heinek's son, which I thought was really cool that you guys interviewed. You guys had obviously said, Louis Alcendo, you had a bunch of really auspicious people. And and with that said, the the stuff with the title for Accidental Truth Next Beyond UFO Disclosure, the one of the the title of the newest documentary, does that sort of reflect a larger truth about UFO information when it enters the public sphere? Because there was a couple instances. The only reason I asked that is there was a couple instances where you guys sort of touched on the fact that there was a little bit of a slip-up. Like I know I I distinctly remember one from Lou talking about something to the effect of essentially that there was evidence of UFO crash retrieval, but he couldn't talk about it. Like he sort of slipped up. Can you sort of allude to like what that means for you guys? Like, is that sort of like a aha moment where it wasn't supposed to come out? But the the the evidence is so damning. Does that sort of like become like a a needle in the haystack for you guys when you're talking about UFO retrieval where somebody that auspicious sort of not necessarily slips up but gives you more information than they were readily available to give you in the first place? Is that sort of a huge win for you guys?

SPEAKER_02 27:56

Well, you know, that's where the uh film got its the the series got its name, the accidental truth stuff. Yeah. Because in the in the beginning of the very first accidental truth movie, we define it roughly as uh an accidental truth is what happens when somebody says or does something that reveals information they didn't want to do.

SPEAKER_00 28:13

It's like almost like they're up against a wall, so they have no right they they have no recourse but to give you some form of information, some form of truth.

SPEAKER_02 28:20

Yeah, and you know, I have to admit, I've I've done what I can in these interviews to to kind of put these guys in a corner and get them to do that. And that that doesn't earn you a lot of repeat performances. I'm sure that after this new movie, there's some people that are never going to talk to me again. Um but you know, that's what it's all about. It's not about you make a bunch of friends, become part of the problem and part of the cover-up so that you can be on TV. It's about investigating and getting to the truth and getting it to the public. And and, you know, sorry if I pissed off a congressman, but it that's just life. And very important information is there, and that's not my job. My job is not to help them keep it a secret, it's to do everything I can to stop them from keeping it a secret.

SPEAKER_01 29:02

Right, right. It's you know, as far as like the files that have been dropped, a lot of people texting me and calling me, like, hey, have you seen this and you have have you seen that? And at first I was excited, and once I started kind of going through it, I was like, Well, I've known about this. Anyone that's remotely been paying attention to this topic for the last, you know, 20, 30, 40 years or more, like it's nothing new. So it's kind of disappointing in that that aspect of like what you were talking about. To people who haven't, like, sure, there's some really interesting stuff in there, but what what is like is there something specific that like you're looking for that you like know that they have that you want them to release, but they haven't yet? Like, is there something we should be really waiting for that you think is gonna come out or or no? Well, it's almost two different questions.

SPEAKER_02 29:50

Uh what I wish they would release is what they have gained from the technology of recovered non-human craft. Yeah. If there's a box out there that from a power source we don't understand or or the general public doesn't know about that would power your house and charge your car, well, all of humanity is entitled to that. And and my concern is that there's technology that's been created that they are not going to share with humanity until they can figure out a way for a select few to profit off of it. And that is almost a crime against humanity. We're on a planet that's bursting at the seams and we're destroying our environment with fossil fuels and and other things, but there seems to be no real interest in changing the status quo. And, you know, the people that have that ability, they're they're not doing a service to humanity, they're doing a disservice. And so the technology, the understanding that maybe we're not alone, and and how does that play into uh our place in the universe and and why do we why don't we have a right to that knowledge? You know, every one of us would have a different way of looking at things if we understood a little bit more about the cosmos and about reality. And we're not being given that. We're being denied it.

SPEAKER_00 31:03

Yeah. And you guys also touch a lot on the sort of the AI version of stuff too. So not only are we talking about, you know, extra or not extraterrestrials, but like non-human entities and that kind of thing. But you guys also dive really deep into accidental truth into the AI version of things. So can you talk a little bit about that and sort of like the simulation theory? Because I know that you also interviewed a lot of people about that as well. So can you sort of speak to that too and sort of how it coincides with the UFO disclosure stuff as well?

SPEAKER_02 31:31

Yeah, you know, the reason this new film is called Accidental Truth Next is because I really wanted to touch on what's next. I mean, granted, it's a sequel to the first one, so it's kind of a clever entente, but the acknowledgement of non-human intelligence in our midst is something that has been part of our vernacular since we've had writing. There is no nothing in our history where non-human intelligence interacting with us has been absent. It's in all of our religious teachings, it's in all of our spiritual teachings, it's carved on cave walls. The the humanity has never had a time in its history when a non-human intelligent interaction has not been part of the legends and lores and the stories that we tell and the things that we believe spiritually. So the fact that we're still struggling with this in this day and age, you know, it's sad. It's a sad commentary on science, it's a sad commentary on our ability to really put wrap our heads around what is undeniable. But that being said, what happens once we do acknowledge that there's non-human intelligence is part of our story, then everything changes. Literally, everything changes. The uh and where do we go from there? So the last section of the film is all about that. Is it discuss it it explores the fact that we're really not even asking the right questions yet?

SPEAKER_00 32:49

Yeah, I noticed that you guys alluded to that a lot. That was sort of like a recurring theme as you guys sort of went through the last, I don't know, half hour, 40 minutes of the documentary you guys were talking about. Are we even ready for the information? If we're not even ready for the information, how can we ask the right questions? So I I I really dug that point of view that we don't even know what this thing is yet. Like a lot of people, for example, being a tech guy, I I have a very, you know, auspicious tech background. I've been in tech for a long time. And a lot of people think that, you know, we're gonna have a natural disaster that ends the world. You all three of us, I think, can sort of agree that it it might not be something that is out of our control. It might be the complete opposite, something that we're creating and and delving into right now that we don't fully understand that's gonna end things for us. And maybe that's the whole idea, is because you know, you have the stuff about, you know, there's been six iterations of Earth and that kind of thing, and we've sort of died out and reformed into a new species and all that kind of not necessarily hoax stuff, but it's stuff that we don't necessarily know all the information about. And like I said, uh we we could be creating something in AI right now that's gonna destroy us just because we're we're no longer needed. We're, as you guys said in the film, we become redundant as human beings and we're no longer needed, and we've sort of played our role and things sort of go off from there. So how do you sort of feel about that? I know that's a lot of information to digest for a for a question.

SPEAKER_02 34:07

Well, yeah, I mean, the the the existence of non-human intelligence makes us it's not the disclosure is not the end of this story. It's the beginning of a whole new story that is way more exciting and intense and actually scary at the same time. So we have to look at this stuff. I mean, what is the true nature of our reality? People like Rizwan Burke, who are in my movie, you know, they bring up very valid arguments for simulation theory and for consciousness being fundamental. And if you accept those things, then that opens up a whole new avenue of explanations for some of this stuff. And then what is artificial intelligence? Could it be that it's the predominant life form in the universe and that we're just beginning to understand the extent of it? We just don't know. But we need to be prepared. And you know, Earth is not a safe place to be. The the surface of this planet has and will be ravaged by civilization-ending catastrophes. It will happen. And so if we want to survive, we have to either get inside the planet, which I believe there may be past civilizations that did just that, or we need to get off the planet. But, you know, it might uh it might be a hundred years, it might be a thousand years, it might be a million years. But at some point, some cataclysm is going to occur on this planet, be it an asteroid hit, a solar flare, something geological is going to happen. And so humanity has to be aware of the fact that our time here is finite and that if we're going to evolve and survive as a species, do we really have to change a lot of what we're doing? And so these are all the questions that we should be asking. You know, what what's what is the nature of reality? What is the meaning of of my place here? And you know, it just it gets it gets very, very deep and very, very existential when you start looking at what we're uncovering and what we're discovering. The UAP phenomenon is leading us to a whole new level of understanding.

SPEAKER_00 36:01

Yeah, I mean, you you talked about religious stuff. We've talked about religious stuff on the podcast before about how it sort of all ties in and could be one and the same, where we're talking about non-human entities and that kind of thing, and then that's exactly sort of what we're talking about with religion in the first place. You can stare at any religion and sort of say, you know, these these beings sort of are living in a realm of their own, and coming from the UAP, UFO, you know, non-human entity side of things with what MoveFon handles and that kind of thing, and alien encounters and everything else. Dan and I think we could both agree as well as you, because it's sort of what you've been doing with Movefon since the start of you know, start of you being in the organization is why can't they be one and the same thing? Why can't religions and science and that kind of thing live in the same sphere? It doesn't have to necessarily be one or the other. Dan, I don't know how you sort of feel about that. I know we've talked about it.

SPEAKER_02 36:50

Well, no, I I agree. And I think that one of the things that we're seeing that's really scary is as we get closer to an acknowledgement of a non-human intelligence, people are clinging to their belief systems and circling their wagons around their their viewpoint and refusing to compromise. So we do have a very traditional religious uh faction that says this is angels and demons, and that goes even into the Pentagon and stuff Lou Elizondo ran into when he was trying to expand his program. And these people, some of them, and I'm not trying to create riffs, but it's just the way it is. These some of these people are unwilling to look at or even acknowledge that, hey, you know, it could be that, and and it could be that that from the filter of these of these spiritual teachings, that that could be a part of it. What we would traditionally see as angelic and demonic forces could very well be a part of what we're seeing. But it doesn't explain everything. And the need to have an open mind and to accept other people's perceptions of this, I believe is important. And I think right now we're seeing just the opposite. And so that's that's a problem. I agree. Dan, you were gonna say something?

SPEAKER_01 37:58

Yeah, I was you know, gonna say I agree with that. You and I obviously have talked about this before, and I'm I'm I'm with you guys uh on that. I I don't understand the I don't understand, especially nowadays, with how much information is out there and how much information you can get besides just what we've all been taught in school and and and church and stuff, you can find ancient texts, you can find all sorts of stuff. To have a closed mind and just no, I'm sitting on this hill and I'm dying on it, it's like it's like an an ostrich sticking its head in the sand, and you know, there's a bunch of different different stuff out there, and you're just kind of closing yourself off to it. I think it's probably more of like a protection thing. I think a lot of people get scared by it.

SPEAKER_00 38:43

I'm I mean they're scared of what they don't understand, I think is the biggest thing is that they would rather point it towards speculation and skepticism and that kind of stuff to merely weed out the fact that they don't want to deal with it, Ron. How do you sort of feel about that? Like I know that you guys have had probably both sides of the coin with people that are 100% on board this is real stuff, people have been covering up for however long, and then you have the other side of the coin where people just absolutely just write it off as people that are crazy and schizophrenic and all sorts of stuff. So what's your point of view on sort of like those two extremes? Do they do they have to live in sort of for the conversation to keep going, or how do you sort of feel about that?

SPEAKER_02 39:23

Well, I think people that just think that this is all crazy and needs to be written off, they're they are a long way on the wrong side of history. And, you know, we're dealing with a whole generation that grew up with shows like Ancient Aliens, and so the understanding that there is something to this stuff, it it it's it's more it's more prevalent and more in the majority than it used to be. But you know, at the end of the day, the way that we cope with this, it's showing me that, you know, people say we're ready for the truth. And and the fact of the matter is I'm not really sure that we are. I think that there's probably a very good reason that some of this stuff is kept secret, and and uh as much as we disagree with it, when we're given the opportunity to prove that we can absorb any kind of knowledge, even if it's even if it's uh unfavorable or existential, I don't think we've made that case for ourselves. I think that all of this compar you know, all of these different factions that are insisting that this has to be something that works with their belief systems and and and it can't be anything else, all they're showing us is that whatever this truth is, we're not ready to absorb it as as humans. We're we are in a position where we're we're we're gonna fight about it. And so what is the point of of doing disclosure when it's gonna fracture society? And and I use I would like to think that it's not going to fracture society, but unfortunately society isn't making that case. They're showing us that, yeah, it probably will.

SPEAKER_00 40:47

And you know, that's a shame because it sounds like it it sounds like the next phase of what you guys are trying to do is not necessarily about revelation or sort of mystifying what's going on. You guys more are about interpretation responsibility with what you guys have found and what are going to find as these news you know things come out from Congress and that kind of thing, as far as the reports and the disclosures involved, and follow through in following through with the information and even pushing it further. So you guys aren't necessarily trying to just give an answer, you're trying to give an answer plus more than that. So I think that's really cool with what you guys do. I think it's really advantageous for people that are skeptics. They can go to, you know, you guys have social media all over the place, and uh as well, you and the production company with Accidental Truth and the two movies and two documentaries that you guys have done, plus the Move on TV network, which I I did a little bit of research on and it seems pretty big as well. This just happens to be sort of your milieu and sort of your your calling card with these two documentaries, but this isn't the only thing that you guys have available to the public.

SPEAKER_02 41:49

There's multitudes of documentaries, interviews, and stuff like that, which I think is really cool because there's there's over 600 pieces of content on Mufon Twitter that you won't find anywhere else.

SPEAKER_00 41:58

Yeah, I saw that as well. And I also saw that with the information you guys have on just the website, just for MuFon itself, you guys have like something I think you guys alluded to it in the documentary, the newest one that came out on the second, something like 1.2 or 1.3 million pieces of evidence that you guys have just available on the website. Is that correct? Is that about ballpark?

SPEAKER_02 42:17

Yeah, I think we've got we've got over 150,000 actual cases, and then all of them are broken down into specific things, everything from videos to case reports to all that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 42:26

Yeah, I think that's really cool. Dan, you sounded like you were gonna say something earlier.

SPEAKER_01 42:30

Yeah, it's as far as uh the ancient alien theory, you know, there's so much stuff as far as like religious texts and also not just texts, but actual places like we can talk about the pyramids of Giza, we can talk about, you know, Machu Picchu and and the pyramids over there. Like does all of it fit into a puzzle or like it's a good question. How do we make sense of it?

SPEAKER_02 42:55

Well, it points to the idea that humanity did not evolve completely on our own. Um, there seems to be a lot of evidence for that coming from different places. Um so you know, that definitely supports the idea that there's non-human intelligent fingerprints on our evolution going, you know, way back to the beginning. So that's always something that is is interesting to look at. The the whole idea of ancient civilizations on the planet, look what they're discovering with the pyramids now. They're they're finding that there's all kinds of stuff to that that we didn't know before. But then the question, you guys, is what do you mean we didn't know that? Why can we not go under the foot of the Sphinx and see if the Hall of Records is really there? Why can we not figure out what's under the pyramids? I mean, we've got the ground pendulum.

SPEAKER_01 43:40

They try they try shutting that down. Like uh Who's the head Egyptologist there? What's his name? If he was on Rogan, I can't remember his name, but yeah, I mean that guy has been an instrument.

SPEAKER_02 43:51

Yeah, he's an instrument of deception.

SPEAKER_00 43:54

Yeah. But you know, just what I've seen with the interview that Dan's talking about with Rogan, it was like Rogan's just Sort of sitting there and not everybody's a Rogan fan. I know we, I know at least Dan and I are. He he's sort of sitting there and just sort of awestruck that this guy's just not giving any content, no answers. He's just sort of running around the issue and the topic in general and saying, like, oh, I found this. Oh, where's the evidence that you found it? Uh I can't give that to him. So, like, well, what are we talking about then? You're just cog talking out the side of your mouth for no reason. It's insane.

SPEAKER_01 44:23

Yeah. Well, there's a lot of that going around. Yeah. Yeah. I I think when you're he's trying to argue against like the ground penetrating radar radar where they light our stuff.

SPEAKER_02 44:32

That technology does absolutely does not prove anything, unfortunately. The the technology is questionable, but at the end of the day, there's something going on under the pyramids. Even some of the latest research is saying that there's a network of tunnels under there, and that and that is with better technology. So, you know, we still don't have a clue in the mainstream science what those pyramids were for. And this whole idea that they were some kind of power plant, some sort of energy, that that is actually gaining traction. And so it's going to be interesting to see what happens. But again, it's just like with anything else. There's certain people that control the information and they are going to decide what we're told and what we're not told. And unfortunately, there's just not much we can do about it, except do independent investigation and try to bring stuff to the public in a way that uh that by that you know sidesteps this really treacherous secrecy.

SPEAKER_00 45:26

Yeah, Dan, you alluded to, I think we did an episode on the pyramids too, where you were talking about the labyrinth, which is sort of what Ron's alluding to, as far as the the the network of tunnels and that kind of stuff. And then you also alluded to the fact that at least to this date, Ron, I don't know if you have any further information on this or whether this is this is true or not. Well, Dan said that Dan, I think, alluded to in the pyramid episode that we did that they've never found a sarcophagus inside the pyramids, that they weren't burial chambers. And that's that's kind of interesting too. They didn't find a body. That's what I mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:57

Well, you know, I'm working with somebody named J.J. Hurtock and his wife Desiree, and they went and did some of the very early explorations of the pyramids. They they are actually the ones that found the tomb of Osiris. So that's that what is what they will tell you. So the uh the the history of the pyramids, we just don't know. And somebody knows, you know, it's like the the people in Egypt that have been taking and and keeping this a secret, that they're they they have knowledge. I don't know if that knowledge is them that that have figured stuff out or if other people that are much more clandestine have figured stuff out and just inserted these people to cover it up and but they don't really for sure know everything they're covering up. We don't know. But you know, the the pyramids, Antarctica, there's there's all kinds of onions in the world. Antarctica's another one's appealing. Antarctica's another one.

SPEAKER_01 46:49

Yeah. How much have you dived into that? Because that's really crazy too.

SPEAKER_02 46:53

Enough to know that there's something going on in Antarctica that they don't want us to know. And my guess is that there's remnants of an ancient civilization there or even a still existing civilization.

SPEAKER_00 47:05

Yeah, there's been questions that that's where Atlantis is. Apparently it's under the ice, something to that effect, is what I've heard.

SPEAKER_02 47:12

Whatever it is, it's uh it it's it's way more than they're telling us. And I believe what we find in that article would give us some answers that we desperately need. But again, you know, you can't just go down there.

SPEAKER_01 47:25

Yeah, right. Well, it's funny, isn't there like 127 countries that signed a treaty saying that like no one's allowed on there or something like something crazy?

SPEAKER_00 47:36

Well, there was some kind of like military operation where it's a no-fly zone or something like that now. Where like there's all of the Antarctic Circle anymore because you can't do it. There's no rhyme or reason, there's no public disclosed reason why you can't do it. You just can't do it. It's like the it's like the stuff that we talked about. I think it was in China, Dan, that we were talking about the pyramids of the hills or whatever, where they just sort of planted artificial trees out of nowhere and now nobody's able to go up on those hills anymore, the mountains or the pyramids that are there, just because they're not supposed to be up there anymore. It's kind of wild. Like people just sort of take this as gospel and don't ask the questions. And I think that's just sort of rounding back to sort of the UAP conversation and stuff that Mufon does. You guys are trying to sort of break that mold is figure out what's the reasoning behind why I can't go here. Oh, you can't go there, but why? Exactly. Yeah. So with the UAP conversation, with all this stuff coming out with with the disclosures and stuff with with Congress and all that kind of stuff that's come out in the probably the past year or so, I would say has been sort of the meat and cheese of what's come out. I don't know how you feel about that, but how is that public conversation from your guys and the testimonials and stuff you guys both post and pre-Congress coming out with all this information and the disclosure stuff? How has that public conversation sort of changed with the people that you've talked to?

SPEAKER_02 48:55

Well, there's a lot more acceptance of the phenomenon, but at the you know, at the end of the day, the public is pretty much swallowing uh hook, line, and sinker, the narrative that they want to put out. When I see people that are insiders in the UFO field hailing the so-called new age of transparency that we're supposed to be seeing right now, I'm just shaking my head. It's like, you know, there's there's a certain amount of people that are going to drink the Kool-Aid, there's a certain amount of people that shouldn't be drinking the Kool-Aid because we should all know better. We should all understand what we're seeing. But then the problem is that a lot of people have found a very comfortable position within the secrecy. If as soon as you are saying things, and and I'm talking about people that are on news shows, I'm talking about other filmmakers, I'm talking about people that go in and they have the they they have the audience and they say something like, Well, I was told this, but I can't share it. Well, guess what? You are no longer uh going after the truth for the benefit of humanity. You are keeping the secrets for your own benefit, either to satisfy your own curiosity or because you're getting the limelight. You know, somebody's self-pushing you to the top of the ratings. And so, and and the game has gotten a lot worse because in the old days, you know, not that long ago, before 2017. People who were involved in trying to get to the bottom of the UFO phenomenon were doing it for the right reason. They they they cared about the truth. Many of them sacrificed their ability to be to to you know, a lot of them literally died in adjunct poverty, famous on television, but broke because they dedicated their lives to this topic. Now it's a bunch of people, there's very few up there that are riding the wave and becoming part of the problem. And the way you can tell who they are is they are not a government agent. They're not somebody who has investigated this topic for years and years and years. They're just somebody who's putting their face on TV and they're saying things like, Well, I've been told by my connections in the Intel community, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Whatever the hell that means.

SPEAKER_00 50:54

Yeah, it's just who are you talking to? Who are they?

SPEAKER_02 50:58

Why don't you tell us what they're telling you instead of telling us that you can't tell us what they're telling you? It's like, who who gave you the right to become another gatekeeper? And so I just it it's happening a lot, and you you see that the people that are getting the most airplay are the and this isn't sour grapes, because I don't care because I tell these guys flat out, don't tell me any secrets because I'm not here to keep your secrets. I'm here to tell the public everything I can dig up. And so I don't want to play that game. But the people that are playing that game are doing it it for self-serving reasons, and it's not helping anybody.

SPEAKER_01 51:32

So when you're interviewing someone for one of your you know documentaries or journalism or whatever you're doing, like are there times where you kind of have to take a deep breath and like step away, or like how do you handle that when it's like you're super frustrated?

SPEAKER_00 51:46

I was gonna say that's like actually a great question. I was gonna actually ask the same thing. How do you know when I I guess how can you not step into bullshit?

SPEAKER_02 51:53

Well, you know, there's a very poignant moment in the new film where I'm questioning.

SPEAKER_00 51:56

I'm gonna say I was gonna allude to, but I'll let you allude to it. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 52:00

Yeah, and you know, I'm giving him the chance to kind of tell me this stuff, and he just won't do it.

SPEAKER_00 52:05

Is this the Lenny Foggin incident? Yeah, is that the Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm sitting there, I'm interviewing him, and and he literally goes, Oh, well, gee, uh, I don't know. I don't know, I don't know where the metal's at. I thought it had over the baggie somewhere. Like, come on, dude.

SPEAKER_02 52:20

I I get so many samples, and then it cuts to a scene of me just sitting there looking at him, and that pretty much says it all. It's like, okay, but then the next scene is like, well, you know, here's a picture of Gary Nolan on a conference call with the guys. Right.

SPEAKER_00 52:33

That was that was that was funny. That was funny. That was hilarious. It was literally like you talk about egg on your face, you're literally staring at the man through a webcam. Like, come on, dude.

SPEAKER_01 52:43

That's hilarious.

SPEAKER_02 52:45

It's it's it's it's pretty funny. And you know, it's like I'm surprised that not more people are talking about how much we we've really broke through a lot of things with this film. It's doing pretty well, but it's uh, you know, I'm not uh what's the phrase? I'm not yacht shopping. Yeah. But it it definitely the first accidental truth movie went down as something that was extremely relevant and one of the best documentaries of its type that was out there. And this one is going to, it's already getting that. It's it's it's uh it's an underground hit already. But I'd like to see it get more into the mainstream.

SPEAKER_01 53:21

Well, it got mentioned in the one of the hearings, didn't it? The original accidental truth, yeah. Tim Tim Burchett actually.

SPEAKER_00 53:28

I was gonna say he seems like a really interesting guy. Like his conversations with you have to have to have been. I mean, you guys can only show so much as far as the interviews because you got to sort of consolidate it, make it digestible in the documentaries and stuff like that that people are watching. But conversations with him, to be specific, must have been incredible. He just seems like a really down-to-earth guy. He seems like he genuinely cares. Yeah, that's what I was gonna say too, is he just seems very genuine.

SPEAKER_02 53:51

Yeah, but you know what's happened, and it's kind of a shame, is that when this all first started, what people don't understand is that just because you get elected to Congress doesn't mean you have any kind of security clearance. So a guy who knows like Lou Elizondo could walk into Tim Burchett's office back in the beginning, and he could tell him all kinds of stuff. But then there's things that he just can't tell him because Burchett's not cleared to hear it. And so what happens with that is that you have all these government people coming through, but the actual members of Congress that they can't talk to them, even in a SCIF, they can't take them into a SCIF and tell them stuff that is classified that they don't A, have a need to know, and B, have the right level of clearance. So so you have that coming up, but then what we found is over time, you know, Congress people have done what they have to do to get those clearances. And so then they get the privilege of of being read into stuff. And what happens with that is that they have to Yeah. So in the beginning it was like we're gonna get to the bottom of this. I'm the American people deserve the truth. And that's how they all started out back in 2017. Now almost every one of them is saying, Well, I've been told some things that they can't tell us. And so basically, you know, that they're doing the same thing as some of these media scoundrels. They've basically uh, you know, they they've been told the truth and now they're part of the secrecy. And so it's it's very frustrating. So what's the thing?

SPEAKER_00 55:14

So can they not tell Go ahead, Dan. Go ahead, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 55:17

Can they not tell the truth because they're afraid of going to jail or because they're afraid of being killed?

SPEAKER_00 55:21

I probably would. I mean, I can say that.

SPEAKER_02 55:22

Well, just because they've been read into classified information and they can't they can't share it. It's how they get you. You know, as soon as soon as you I call it the devil's deal, man. As soon as you are a guy that that sits in the room and they say, Look, I'm gonna share some information with you, but you can't disseminate it, and you say, Okay, why are you doing that? You're doing it for your own personal gratification, you're doing it before your own personal curiosity, and some people are doing it just because they want to be in the narrative. So now they can go on News Nation and say, Well, I've been told some things that I can't share. And then all of a sudden they're part of the, you know, they're like one of the people that we're gonna go to for information because maybe they'll tell us what they know. And it's like it it's it's a terrible trade. And I and I never made that deal. Every single time, and it has happened when I've been set told or shown something with the with the the predicate that I can't release information, my response is always 100% of the time, I'm not gonna carry the burden of your secret. I'm just not gonna do it. Right. Because I don't want to have to be one of those people that's walking around knowing things that could change the course of humanity and knowing that if I opened my mouth I could face ruin. So I would rather everything I've dug up and delivered in my documentaries, I've gotten that information fair and square. And and it hasn't been because somebody, you know, I didn't betray any confidences because when people tried to get me into a confidence, I would say, no, don't do I I don't care. I I'm not interested in being a secret keeper. There's too many, too many things that uh the public.

SPEAKER_00 56:53

Yeah, you don't want to necessarily be looking over your shoulder for something that, you know, you can go through all the legality and that kind of stuff, but again, with what people have dis you know, what people have disclosed in the government and things like that, you're still do you guys ever sort of I I I I guess is there ever sort of a time or has there been a time with what you guys have uncovered or the information that has sort of been leaked to you or that kind of thing where you've also almost been hesitant to sort of delve into it deeper, or is that just not in your guys' DNA? I can think it's a fair question, just being that there are people that don't disclose everything, like I said, through like we were talking about the the government and the whistleblowers and congressional hearings and all that stuff, with the impact it's had with just what they've shared. Has there ever been a time where you or one of your colleagues or something like that has found something or uncovered something or gotten more information about something where you're like, this could be really dicey and we gotta be really careful about how we approach this?

SPEAKER_02 57:47

Well, I mean, there are certain cases where you know we have to protect people that could be hurt by their information becoming public. We we vigorously protect the experiencer people that you know we don't share the information they provide. Oh, yeah, yeah. You have to. Yeah, yeah, because if people can't trust you, then they can't come forward. That makes sense. And and then, you know, like okay, so my next film that's gonna be coming out, just one of the first people you guys are gonna hear this. It's it's it is about the legacy UFO programs. And you know, everybody's talking about this. Well, legacy programs, legacy programs, it sounds great, but what the heck does it mean? And so we MUFON has files of very detailed case reports with very credible witnesses and their names and their military and civilian rankings and who they were talking about very specific cases. And so we're about to deliver a film that outlines 26 reported cases of crash of crash retrievals.

SPEAKER_00 58:48

And their names and all the information is disclosed in that? Well, we gotta be very careful about that. Of course, of course, of course. No, it wasn't. Well, Dan, what was the documentary that we saw that was the you said it was like 20 or is this the same thing that Ron's talking about? Remember, we watched that documentary that you showed me? It was about like the it was the UAP UFO stuff, but there were like 20 senators or something that came forward about it. Do you remember what I'm talking about? It was like a it was an Amazon documentary or something like that. I don't remember exactly what it was called. Maybe it was a different topic. Yeah, it was something like that where like there were these people that came forward about all this stuff and they were they they were on like that it could have ruined their career and all that kind of stuff. So maybe that's what you're talking about, Ron. I'm not sure. But you're probably talking about age of disclosure. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. But uh like I said, you you have these people putting their reputations on the line and they're not even giving the whole truth, I think is the the craziest part.

SPEAKER_02 59:43

Yeah, the uh the some of the politicians and and people in that film have since kind of thrown the film under the bus just because they uh there's too much risk involved in what they have shared. So, you know, at the at the end of the day, it's that you know, that film it it it made a huge contribution, but I told Dan Farrah when I first met him while that film was still in the works that you can't get uh you can't make a film about disclosure using those people because they're never going to tell us the whole truth. And that that is exactly as it turned out. You know, it's almost like, you know, let's go into the let's go into the pack of wolves and get them to tell us about why the chickens are safe. So it was an important film. It made some it made some splash, but it only goes and serves to protect the controlled narrative.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:32

Yeah, for sure. So I I know that we talked about you have a lot of really big hitters as far as people coming forward and doing interviews with you in the two documentaries that you've been responsible for with the UAF, UFO and UAP stuff. Is that sort of bridging the gap for more people to come forward? Have you guys seen an influx of information or stuff coming out since you guys have put out these documentaries and since you've been a part of MUFON? Are there more people that are just sort of seeing the is it sort of opening the floodgates for other people to come forward? I guess is the general question.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:03

Well, unfortunately, I don't think so. And the reason is that, you know, in the in the film, I talked to Kirsten Gillibrand, Senator Kirsten Gillibrand, and she talks about whistleblowers being safe. And so I I I remember I was it was right after the f the second hearing with John Kozlotsky from Arrow, and it was literally in the hearing room. And I said, Really, Kirsten, do me a favor. And I put the camera right in front of her and I said, Tell tell the whistleblowers they're okay. And and so she goes on camera right to the camera and says, Whistleblowers are safe. I can guarantee that. But but then the very next scene is a little bit more.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:36

It almost is almost like an uneasiness once you said that, though. It's like now I feel less safe.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:40

Yeah, and and the very next scene in the film is a whistleblower that had his life destroyed just for Yeah, it was that young man. I can't remember his name.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:48

It was a young man that was like, I'm like, yeah, like I'm uh I got like four weeks left of unemployment and I'm not working right now, but it's important. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:56

Lost his clearances. I mean, you know, so the point is the whistleblowers are not safe right now. I hate to be the one to say that, but they're not. They just don't. Arrow is, you know, supposed to be a place where you could go as a potential whistleblower, and you will be ushered into the system and given the protections that you need. But what I've found, and it's my opinion, is that Arrow is more of a clearinghouse for identifying the whistleblowers so that the uh so that the darker uh groups can go after them. And that's why we have a certain number of missing scientists that I believe are connected, not all of them, but some. And one of the things that they're going to find, and this is a prediction, is that uh some of the ones that are are have the most egregious stories about what happened to them disappearing and being found with a gun months later, it's gonna be found out that these people were exploring becoming a whistleblower and and telling what they knew. And you know, they are found out and they are removed. And so it's uh it's very scary. And whistleblowers are not safe yet. There is no mechanism right now where you can come and and truly be safe. And when they had that hearing with when Kirsten Gillibrand brought in the new director of Arrow, that woman sitting next to him, her name is Susan Guff. She's a Pentagon spokesperson who is known for towing the line and and you know, basically making excuses for the Pentagon. And she is looking at the camera with the evil eye the whole time this guy is saying, Oh yeah, we'll we want to get to the bottom of it. She's just sitting there and she's sending a very clear signal to anybody who knows who she is, don't even think about coming forward. And when you watch that hearing, you will it it with that knowledge of who she is and what she was doing, it's very clear that the reason she was sitting there and the reason she was positioned the way she was and the reason she was having the looks on her face that she had is because she was sending a very clear subliminal signal to the people that know. You know, no matter what they're saying, it's not true.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:49

Don't even Yeah, the stuff with the outstanding stuff as far as like your stuff with Arrow and that kind of thing, it's being still outstanding and that kind of stuff. Like, what what are you what are you neg why do you why are you sort of elongating the time? Like there's gotta be some some kind of back-end agenda or something like that. Like when stuff like that happens, when you're trying to get information and it's information that should be readily available, and they're just procrastinating and sort of drawing it out, you sort of tell the truth without having to open your mouth. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, that's sort of how I think about it. Yeah. Like you're not saying anything, but that even says more than if you were to just come out with the truth in the first place. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:33

The the whole situation is just getting worse and worse. And at the time when we need it to get better. So the whistleblowers are not safe. Disclosure that we're seeing it right now in the way it's being framed, in my opinion, is just a repeat performance of nonsense we've already been fed. This this group of people has no interest in revealing the entire truth about all of this to any of us. It's been a conspiracy that started with the churches and has ended with shadow government so deep that even presidents can't get to the information. So the idea that this government process is going to lead us towards a whole new understanding is highly unlikely. It's gonna lead us to a controlled narrative that is being floated for nefarious reasons.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:17

So Yeah, I mean they're they're just necessar I mean I mean, honestly, they're doing the exact same thing that they were doing before the information became public. They're just doing it in a little bit more of a filtered, filtered way. So they're still doing the exact same thing from the point of view as we we want the whole story. Why are you spoon feeding us pieces of information? Just give us the information. If it's true, what's the hurt in telling us everything? That's not how government works. But that's what I'm saying, is that's the huge problem is that you have guys like Ron and people that are involved in MUFON trying to get to the bottom of this stuff, putting their lives and reputations on the line. The information is there. Why can't we just have the damn information? But on the other side of the coin, you could make the argument that we're not ready for. for it or whatever the case is, whatever whatever slapstick like excuse they want to put on the fact that they're not doing it. It just it doesn't really make sense to me. So I it's it's kind of weird.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:10

I think the excuse that people aren't ready for it.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:13

I think that's a cop out.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:14

I think that's a crock and show I think that's a cop out. I think the big one is is money. I think it comes down to money.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:20

Well it's also reputation too because there's been a lot of people that have staked their reputation on all this stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:25

No, Ron, exactly what you just said, yes. Yes. Money and control. For sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:30

I think that's the probably the thing the entire infrastructure that governs this planet would collapse if all of a sudden we didn't need to rely on things that cost money to supply us with energy. At the end of the day energy runs the planet and the people that run energy run the planet. And so if there was a technology that would free us from that to where we every one of us could get access to free energy.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:52

That's where Nikola Tesla got into the problems. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:55

I was just about to say that's Nikola Tesla.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:57

He figured it out and then all his funding got taken away and it's a known fact that JP Morgan at the time basically told Tesla if I can't put a meter on it I'm not interested in funding it. And that's why we had Edison's way of of doing electricity and Tesla was basically you know mowed under was because his his type of energy if you would have perfected the technology wouldn't would have been something everybody could access. And they can't have that. You know they just they just can't have that. No the the people in power unfortunately there's two problems. One is that in order to ascend the power hierarch hierarchy on our planet and Thomas Jane is really good of explaining this in the film the people that will do the things that it takes to get to become a head of state or to become a CEO they are people tend that largely have psychopathic and sociopathic tendencies. They don't see our world and humanity the same way that people that don't have those tendencies see them. And people that are not psychopathic they are the kind that they you know they grow they they they live their lives in in a in a normal way and they have compassion and they have understanding and they and they have morals. But the psychopathic and sociopathic minds do not have that stuff and they and because they don't have those kind of governing forces they are able to do whatever it takes to get to the positions of power. And once they have those positions of power they are governing themselves from a look of no people are not created equal. It's the law of the jungle we're going to claw our way to whatever we want to go. We don't care you know who who dies and and how badly we rub society. And so that's what we're facing. And I don't know how we're going to get that to change but it absolutely needs to change or we're going to be in a position where we're just uh in a self-destructive spiral.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:52

As far as the what gets misunderstood about UAPs and that kind of thing, what do you think is the most under misunderstood thing about the topic itself? What do you think people sort of pass over that's important in your guys' view as far as being a part of the organization? What do you think is the most misunderstood about the topic?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:08

Aaron Ross Powell I think that the the people are still debating whether or not they're little green men from another planet or or what they are and I think the most under misunderstood thing about the topic is that it's not about any one answer. There's probably multiple answers to the same question. The origin of these beings can be interdimensional it can be through time it could be creatures that have lived here on the planet uh that that have long since gone underground and continue to evolve and any number of other types of life forms that we might not even understand yet. So that's one of the misunderstood things is that it there's no one answer. It's probably it could be many things and it could be all of the above. So that's one of the things that that we're missing. And then the other thing is the purpose of this stuff. If we're living in a simulated reality or we're or we're spiritual creatures having a human experience which many religions teach us is true, then these things are manifesting around us in appearing to different people in different ways for what could be very personal reasons to assist us in our own self-development one person at a time. So you know it's not about alien beings from another planet. It's about wait a minute what is this teaching us about the whole nature of our reality and people like I said in the film you know we start to we start to look at these questions because that's the these are the questions we have to start asking is it we got to get past is there non-human intelligence that exists? And once we get past that it opens a whole new can of worms and so people are clamoring for disclosure but they're not thinking about what it's going to mean when we get it.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:42

Yeah right for sure. The the the interesting thing too is a lot of people you know they think UAPs, UFOs, flying in the sky, we know more about space than we do our own water here.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:53

That's what I was going to say too yeah we've had we've had a huge conversation about that as maybe what you know we we think of the we think of space as the final frontier what if it's just under the waves like we we we know so much more about space because we're able to go up there and that kind of thing under the water it seems like we know little to nothing in the grand scheme of things about what's going on underneath under on underneath the water as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:16

So do you think they've done more research on that Ron than they don't tell us or or noadet coming forward you know if if if anybody knows about what's going on under the oceans it's got to be him I mean he's the world's leading oceanographer he was a rear admiral in the Navy and he's and he's talking about this stuff it but he certainly knows a lot more than he's able to say and you know that's a that's a thing that's really glaring about this new group they put together is supposed to be answering to the White House. It's literally a bunch of people who already know a lot about what's going on. What are they going to do? Sit in a room and talk to each other and pretend they don't know it's just dumb. And and Gallaudet is you know he could answer that question. If he was on this show right now he could answer that question. They found the basis they know where they're at they you know it's like you know what do you say?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:06

Yeah what a great spot to hide though you know something that's something we as human beings can't get to it's actually a pretty ingenious way of hiding it. Yeah and you know they might if it's that far down so to speak.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:19

One thing you know they might not be hiding they might have just been driven down there through you know catastrophic things that happened on the planet and they had the technology to do it. But the other side of it is and this is a perfect example if it were revealed that there was remnants of a past civilization, maybe they weren't even fully human or not human at all, but they had advanced technology and they were here on the planet and they've been living side by side with us the whole time our initial instinct to that would be we have to kill them all. And that's just a sad commentary on humanity.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:51

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:52

So it it would just be another reason to find somebody else to go to war against it's our planet damn it we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna take it back even though they've been minding their own business and leaving us alone. And until we evolve past that mindset we our options are limited.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:07

Well we got to get rid of the military industrial complex for that to happen because it's hard to get rid of war and all that when they're making money off of it.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:15

Well that I mean a perfect example of the military industrial complex negating information and having some sort of peace with these non-human intelligence beings and that kind of thing is sort of what we talked about when we first met you Ron on the initial interview when we talked to you was about the Douglas or Douglas MacArthur thing as far as the um or Eisenhower excuse me Eisenhower having the meeting with the the the beings and basically telling them that you know if you get rid of your nukes we'll take care of you and you'll be open to this whole new realm of information and everything and he basically says no so I I like he basically gives them middle finger says we're not doing it you can sort of write off into the sunset and we don't sort of care what you're doing or we're just not going to do it. So I I mean how many times I mean in just the research you've done how many times have we had these instances where we we were literally handed on a silver platter this information in a way to sort of progress into another realm of humanity and and we've just said absolutely not we're not doing it because of our own our our our you know our our our own selfishness. It's crazy. It's it's it's it's it's wild. So Ron, just to sort of round out the episode before we sort of break off and everything what's the most important thing that people should understand about MuFon as an organization from your point of view as somebody that's sort of in the fold?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:32

That it's the low the largest and oldest organization doing what it does. And even in this day and age there's nobody else that does what MuFon does. We actually have the world's biggest network of boots on the ground people that are studying this topic. We have the best photo analysis people we have the best people to digest and help with the experiencer phenomena we have the best people to make sense out of UFO sightings all over the world and there is to this day no other organization that even comes close. And so that's one thing that I want people to understand. You know Mufon doesn't toot their own horn. We've been in in Washington DC doing a lot of work behind the scenes with Congress and we're not out on TV shows talking about it. We're doing the actual work and so when people think you know that Mufon is you know it's an old organization and it's it's certainly had its bloody noses over time. But when uh when people talk about Mufon they need to understand that we're alive and well and doing what we do better than anybody and uh we're doing it better than we've ever done it. So if you really care about the UFO topic you should be a member of MUFON it's it's cheap and it gets you a a front row seat to a lot of insider information.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:45

Yeah for sure and I I I I guess also to sort of piggyback off that as far as what they should understand about Mufon the listeners and that that that that kind of thing. What sort of gives you hope in this where the subject is headed and and sort of what should listeners do if they have their own sight or encounter? Like what sort of gives you is it is it the people that are coming forward is it the people that you talk to that are even stuff that you can't disclose in anonymity for for an anonymity's sake? So what sort of round that out for me as far as what they should do and what sort of gives you hope going forward with these people that are coming forward?

SPEAKER_02 1:16:14

Well I think that the you know the political process of disclosure is only going to get us so far. It's but we're at the point now where technology is in the hands of civilians. You have the ability to now to test and look for UFOs and and to look for answers outside of of the government process. And at the end of the day I think that the uh the experiencer phenomenon and more advancement of access to technology is going to get us to the point where we just don't need them anymore. We we're we're we've we've grown tired of the way that this process is unfolding we understand that we're still being lied to and that that's pretty much the policy and it's never going to change. And so it's up to us and hopefully whatever beings are behind this stuff that are are are going to bring us to the next level of disclosure. You know at the end of the day we're forgetting that as much as we want to resent the people that are maintaining secrecy they might be maintaining the secrecy because the the the true beings behind this have insisted that the secrecy be maintained. So you know there could be a whole process of acclimating humanity that is not being run by humans and we just don't know. So before we we paint everybody into a box and and call them evil for being such secret keepers and depriving humanity, we do need to give them the benefit of the doubt as well that maybe they're doing it for the right reasons or maybe they're doing it because they don't have a choice.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:40

Yeah that completely makes sense. I I mean like we talk like we talked about these people have had death threats put against them they've lost their reputations over this and they're still willing to come out and say and raise their hand that not everything is what it seems and I have some of the information to make everything that you've been hearing plausible and some of it is true. The problem I think a lot of people will face coming out as whistleblowers is exactly what we talked about. These people have been up under threat of death and it's it's not a small task to come out and start talking about this stuff, especially at length and in detail. It's just it's so new and it's so scary for a lot of people because we don't under we there we s we don't we're we're vastly and horrendously scared of stuff we don't understand. And this is a big can of worms that a lot of people are starting to open now and and you guys being the organization that you are being so heavily involved in the all the hearings and stuff that's coming out, you guys are on the forefront. I think that's really cool. I don't Dan I don't know how you feel about that as we sort of round things out but as as he you know Dan's a member I I've obviously thought about becoming a member. I just haven't delved into it yet but with everything coming out you guys are undeniably on the forefront of what's going on and trying to get to the truth and and bury everything else which I think is really cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:51

Yeah no I I listen Ron I f I have a lot of respect for you and a lot of respect for Mufan and what you guys do. The amount of time and effort and dedication and also the sacrifices that you and everyone in your organization does, you know, you sacrifice a lot of time that you can be doing other things with but everyone has a goal and it's not to you know like you said you're not you're not shopping for yachts. You're you're actually trying to really bring forth true disclosure and information for the betterment of humanity. So a lot of a lot of respect for you.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:25

Yeah you definitely get the kudos you get guys definitely get your flowers from the two of us that's for damn sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:30

Well that's awesome. You know at the end of the day we're just people trying to get the truth out and very very w without fanfare. And I think that the uh the field needs more of that and it needs less of the uh of the pomp and circumstance that it's evolving into. So it's going to be interesting to see how it unfolds. This is truly a defining point for humanity and in in many many ways. So where we're where we're at in the next 20 50 years is going to be determined literally our whole future is going to be determined by the collective decisions we make as a as a race and as a species and as a people over the next 10 20 years.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:07

Yeah it's gonna be for lack of a better word interesting for sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:10

Yeah I mean we're either going to we're either going to find our way into a Star Trek civilization you know this really nice future or we're gonna get you know they're gonna recycle humanity and do something else with the planet and it it's and it will be because we we made the choices that got us to the outcome.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:28

It's not going to be anybody else's fault. Yeah 100% it's it's about looking in the mirror and that type of thing well anyways well we appreciate you sir huge thank you to you for joining us and sharing your perspective we really appreciate it. Also on the MUFON work that you guys are doing bigger questions surrounding UFOs and UAPs like like Ron said he alluded to the fact that they're the biggest organization doing a lot of stuff that nobody or if anybody is doing besides them. So whether you're a skeptic a believer or somewhere in between this conversation is sort of a reminder I think all of us can agree that the subject deserves a lot more serious attention a lot more careful investigation and just honest curiosity like I said these these guys at MUFON and Ron and and and to be specific are not doing this for the fanfare. They're not doing it for any other reason other than the fact that they're just trying to get to the truth and giving everybody their fair shake at what's actually going on and that type of thing. So like I said we applaud you sir we really appreciate you coming on the show and it was it was an absolute pleasure talking to you. So with with that being said just make sure if you guys enjoyed the episode just to follow us on obscurecast at link linktr.e forward slash obscure cast uh for more strange conversations clips and new episodes and then you can be sure to follow Move on on their socials on YouTube, Instagram Facebook and X as well so without any further ado, down know if you have anything else before we wrap up Ron, it was an absolute pleasure sir. Thank you so much. I know you're a busy man. We really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:49

Yeah thanks for having me on I'd like to mention for people the the new film is called Accidental Truth Next. It's available on Amazon it's available on Apple it's available on Google Play and YouTube Movies and TV. The first accidental truth is available for free on YouTube Movies and TV and the website is accidentalthnext.com that points you in all those directions. So I hope people get a chance to check out the films.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:13

Yeah like I said with accidental truth with the second one that you did I haven't checked out the first one but the for the second one is absolutely phenomenal. It came out in uh on the second so it was it was unbelievable just for because it tackles so many different things like if you're just looking for UAP stuff if you're looking for simulation theory stuff you're looking how the two tie together it was really cool. It was really really really good so but yeah without any further ado as we wrap up again Ron we really appreciate and we will see you guys on the next episode. Thanks for listening guys thanks a lot