The Knights Templar – Power, Secrets, and the Order That Wouldn’t Die

From warrior monks to one of the most powerful orders in history, the Knights Templar rose fast—and fell hard. In this episode of ObscuraCast, we explore their sudden wealth, secret rituals, dramatic persecution, and the mysteries that keep their legend alive centuries later. What really happened to the Templars, and why do their secrets still haunt history?

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:54

All right, everybody, welcome back to another episode of Obscuracast. Uh, as always, I have my usual co-host, Danny O'Neal. What's going on, sir? What's up, man? How are you? It's another day, another dollar, dude. Um, I also I I know we have a really interesting topic that we want to get into tonight. It's another conspiracy society or society secret society that we both sort of have a little bit of knowledge of, but we wanted to delve into a little bit deeper. Before we do get into that, I did want to plug our socials. So if you guys did not know, not only are we on Spotify, we're also on Apple Music, as well as we have an Instagram and uh Twitter or X account. Uh, it's just at ObscureCast on both of those platforms, same name as the podcast. Like I said, we're both on Apple Music and Spotify. Um, so we've been getting a lot of traffic also over the podcast, especially from people outside the U.S. So we appreciate you guys listening in. Like I said, with the holidays, we sort of got sidetracked and we weren't able to do as many episodes that we wanted to, but we're trying to get back on it. Just life happens, and we're gonna get into another episode tonight on something pretty cool. So tonight we are gonna talk about the Knights Templar, Dano. Yes, we are. Really interesting topic from a lot of points of views, just because there's some misnomers about what the Knights Templar is or was and sort of what they turned into, because it's it's a society that's actually still around today to a certain degree. It's been spidered into different factions and that kind of thing, but it's still sort of existing in today's day. So, first talking point I wanted to get into just sort of set up the scene and set up the podcast. So, who do you think that the Knights Templar were supposed to be? Because like I said, there's a lot of misnomers about Secret Society, the Illuminati, the Freemasons, all that kind of stuff. Why do you think or what do you think they were supposed to be? Like what was their founding principles and that kind of thing? Where do you stand on that?

SPEAKER_00 2:39

Uh protecting Christians from vandals and from other stuff. Actually, not even just Christians, but just people from you know, when they after the first crusade, um the roads from the Holy Land to Europe and stuff like that were really barbaric. There was a lot of crime that happened, people getting robbed and killed. So they were really like almost like a for higher security service at first. So that's kind of how that started.

SPEAKER_02 3:06

So I know yeah, I was gonna say, so uh uh they always do, right? Everything sort of evolves. I guess where I stand on it is that they were sort of a militant arm of the church at that time, because the church was more or less for a lot of the world, especially that part of the world, the church was sort of the the end all be-all when it came to certain things as far as policing and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

They definitely were for the Vatican, but that's not how they started off.

SPEAKER_02 3:32

Right, no, exactly. That's my point.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:35

But as any as any society, anything in life, it always progresses into something not necessarily what it was supposed to be because of outside influence, things happening that sort of twerk the jaw as far as things going a different way. Big one was the money. Yeah, so that we're gonna get into that, and that's actually a really cool thing that they're one of the first like I said, we'll get into it, but I don't want to give too much away. So why do you think so? We sort of stand on the same sort of tip as far as what they were supposed to be. Why do you think they still come up in conspiracies? Why do you think they're still so relevant after, let's say, 200 years plus of being around in some form or fashion?

SPEAKER_00 4:12

Oh, I think it's because you can find like they're they find Templar relics, you know, coins and weapons and material like all over the world. They were kind of like everywhere, like um, I don't know if you've ever watched the show uh um Oak Island, The Curse of Oak Island.

SPEAKER_02 4:29

I think I've watched it with you a couple times.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

Probably dad dad was really infatuated with that. He read that thing when he was a kid. But they found I mean, that's in Nova Scotia. They have found Templar items all the way there on that island. Um and there's supposedly a secret buried treasure. There's supposedly the Templars had a huge mass treasure. I think most of the treasure's just in the Vatican. I don't think they buried any of it, but that's whatever. You know, they there's a lot of treasure stuff. They had immense uh immense wealth. You know, people I mean, you had everything from k kings to peasants who would donate money, property, or valuables to the Templar which would go to the Vatican, which is why the Vatican has seventy-five miles worth of you know, forage underneath the Vatican. You're talking about the secret archives and all that shit? Yeah, seventy-five miles worth of shit.

SPEAKER_02 5:26

I mean, that's a lot of stuff over I mean, it's not just your like pen and paper, it's like, you know, actual like folios and stuff like that from Plato and Aristotle and all that kind of stuff. Like the the stuff the stuff that's down there we'll probably never know for sure unless you somehow get some chance or some, you know, ability to go down there and actually look at it yourself. It's kind of like, you know, if you were gonna go to the FBI building and try to see like files in the FBI buildings and stuff like that. Like it's it's a needed, it's it's well that's what I'm saying, is it's like a need-to-know basis, even then, you don't really need to know. Like, you know what I mean? It's very, very secretive, very close to the chest.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

If I was a betting man, I would say they probably have some stuff from the Library of Alexandria down there. Like they probably have so much shit that they're never gonna release, like you said.

SPEAKER_02 6:16

Do you think it would be damaging to release it? That's another sort of rabbit hole we could go down.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

Some of it, probably. Some of it, absolutely, probably, because I mean, if you look at it, you know, they rewrote the New Testament, what I forget when they rewrote it, but they left out like we've talked about it before. Like, I think the original Bible had eighty books in it, and well, that was the Council of Nicaea, right?

SPEAKER_02 6:36

That's essentially what that council was about was to pick what was gonna go in and what was gonna get taken out.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

Yeah. So I mean, think about all the stuff and evidence that they probably have. Look at the book of Enoch.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

Well, I was just gonna I was actually just gonna mention that. You beat me to it though.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

Yeah, like you that's one example.

SPEAKER_02 6:54

There's several that's a pretty glaring example because essentially it's about an alien abduction, right? It's like a first hand account of alien abduction. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:01

Yeah. Yep. So I mean, imagine the stuff that they have down there. What if there's like supposedly the Templars had an Ark, you know, the Ark of the Covenant. Supposedly there's like six of them that, you know, were protected and the Templars had the Arks. At least like four of them. There's supposedly like six and they had four or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 7:23

But like then on top of that, you had the Holy Grail as well. Holy Grail, yep. So some pretty us pretty pretty auspicious, not just Christian relics, but relics in general.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

And I think that because their reign was only 200 years, it was so short, but so vast and so big and intense that like you had this, they started off small, grew huge, and then boom, was just disbanded because we'll talk about it later. But essentially, France got into debt with them and didn't want to pay.

SPEAKER_02 7:49

So while we're on the tip of sort of setting the scene, so that's sort of like the very generalized bubble view of what we're gonna be talking about. We'll get into a you know, we'll get into some backstory about it too, as well as some things that you guys probably didn't know and even stuff that we didn't know, but but doing the research, it would kind of was uh was kind of eye-opening. Um, but the two things I sort of want you guys to sort of keep in the back of your head as we're talking about stuff to sort of make your own conclusion is uh secret societies, do they actually exist or is it just powerful people protecting interests that are close to them and important to them? And also the history of something like the Templars or the Freemasons or the Illuminati, whatever, is it mostly truth or is it just a story that sort of came out of what actually happened? It's like the telephone game that we've talked about on different episodes where you sort of have something happen at the beginning of the beginning of the line, and then once you get down the line to the 50th person, it's changed drastically or it's not even close to the what it was supposed to originally what you were supposed to originally be talking about or looking at. So you want to talk about a little bit of the the post-first crusade chaos that sort of led up to the origin of the Templars, Danny? Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

Uh you know, 1099 the Christian forces captured Jerusalem, and that was during the first crusade, and uh, you know, it was a victory for uh, you know, Cranian Christum. But uh, like I said before, the roads to the Holy Land from Europe and from, you know, Asia and and all that. It was extremely dangerous, and it was plagued by bandits and hostile forces. Pilgrims traveling from Europe were routinely robbed, laved, and killed. So the founders, it was around 1119 and a small group of knights led by I think it's a tough it's a tough one.

SPEAKER_02 9:32

It's a French name. It's Hugh de Paines, I believe.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

Yeah. Uh what Blake said a French nobleman vowed to protect Christian pilgrims.

SPEAKER_02 9:41

So that sort of brings us into like the danger of the pilgrims and what sort of they sort of came out of necessity. Like I said, they didn't start out this way, but essentially they were like a policing of those roads, is essentially what they were responsible for.

SPEAKER_00 9:54

Yep. For for higher security, basically. And they consisted of nine knights. They took monastic vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience, and they lived a uh austere lifestyle similar to monks.

SPEAKER_02 10:07

So they were essentially I don't know if you know this, where they s I mean they essentially weren't pacifists, but they weren't looking for trouble, right? They were just trying to police the roads. So they were obviously armed, but they weren't at the beginning of things, they weren't really trying to use it unless need be.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 10:22

That's fair. Yep. But I think the the vows, the poverty, chastity, and obedience is interesting because if I'm not mistaken, aren't those the three vows or a couple of the vows you have to take when you actually become a priest or a nun? So yeah. I think it's pretty close. If it's not those three, it's definitely part of it. But like you said, three or nine original knights, so very small sect of people. The crazy thing is the immediate backing by the church, and then you want to talk a little bit about the temple mount, just sort of why that's important.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

Yeah, so they actually they're given head their headquarters were on the temple mount, believed to be the ruins of Solomon's Temple.

SPEAKER_02 10:59

Which I've actually been to, which I've actually been to that, by the way. It's actually pretty auspicious and cool. Remember, I told you I went to Israel and was like next to the Wailing Wall and all that kind of stuff. Because if anybody doesn't know, I think we've talked about it before. Maybe I haven't talked about it on this podcast, but I know I've mentioned it and maybe in one of the other ones that we did with a couple buddies of ours. But essentially, the whaling wall is said to be, or it's all I think it's also known as the West Wall, I think. Essentially, what that is, is it's the last remaining wall of that temple. That's why it's so important. It's one of the last, if not the only wall that's still standing, like structurally sound wall of that original temple of Solomon's Temple. So that's why it's so significant. Just a little context of why that matters.

SPEAKER_00 11:43

Yeah, I know. And uh that's how they pretty much came up with their name Templars, because they were on Solomon's Temple. So that's why that is significant.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

Yeah, the immediate backing by the church, just to give context on that. So the papal support of the Vatican and the church itself, that took place in 11. The Council of Troyes formally recognized the Templars as a religious order, was strongly supported by Bernard of Clairvaux, and he wrote in a book portraying the Templars as quote unquote holy warriors. So they immediately had backing by the church, which I think is really significant, especially back in those days. I don't know how you feel about that. That was sort of like, I mean, you're basically getting the nod from God or the vessel of God to do whatever the hell you want to do. Yeah, yep, absolutely. Why do you think they got papal why do you think they got papal backing so fast? Why do you think they decided that these were the guys?

SPEAKER_00 12:33

Because I think those three vows that they took and they were there to protect people. They weren't there like we said earlier to start crap and whatnot. They were there to protect Christians from just traveling to the Holy Land. I mean, think about it if you're you know the Vatican. Other than the Vatican, like what's a more holy place would be Jerusalem, especially after the crusade. Getting all the Muslims out of there and stuff. So you know, you want to make sure that people are protected so they can go to the the homeland, and that's what they did. And I think that because they kinda did it, you know, hat in hand and weren't, you know, causing more trouble, it was literally just a protection thing. Especially back then, because you gotta think about it, like how many other places in Europe and Asia and the Middle East were, you know, Christians were being enslaved and killed, you know? So of course you're gonna get the the Vatican and the Pope's support for being brave and protecting your people.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

I think the craziest thing was the privileges they were granted. So we talked a little bit about them getting backing from the Vatican, but they also had some pretty crazy advantages, or I don't know what other word you'd want to use. They sort of had a leg up on everybody else, so they answered only to the Pope, they were exempt from local laws and taxes, and they could build churches, collect donations, and cross borders freely. So basically, like I said, they got the ability to do whatever the hell they wanted from the rib. Yeah.

unknown 14:00

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 14:01

Uh but I know as far as uh you said they were sort of in the same realm as monks, but they had sort of a militant style to them. Like monks are obviously like peace, love, no not no violence, that kind of thing. They're sort of pacifists in that degree. But I think it's interesting to note they became it's interesting, they be it's basically says that they became shock troops of the crusades, which is actually pretty crazy considering the time period. They were heavily disciplined, like I said, they were working for the church, so they sort of had to uphold that credo while still trying to be militant, which is a tough line to tow, I think. You're trying to sort of spread the message of like Christianity and that kind of stuff, but then on the other hand, you have this militant force that's trying to sort of push that narrative forward. So it's like I said, it's a sort of fine line to tow. They were never known for retreating, they were only re they would only retreat if they were ordered to. So essentially they would stand and fight until there was no more fighting to be had, which I think is interesting.

SPEAKER_01 15:01

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 15:01

And then obviously, if anybody doesn't know the mantles that they wore, the Templars uniform was essentially chainmail, and then over top of it they would have like a mock or like a smock or like a tabestry with like a red cross on it that was sort of their moniker as being part of the Templars.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

But uh, how do you sort of feel about using since they were working for the church, obviously the religion card comes into play? How do you feel about that being used, religious belief being used as a military weapon? What's your stance on that? Do you think it was necessary? Do you think it was an excuse? Where do you sort of sit?

SPEAKER_00 15:38

I think given those times it was necessary because it wasn't just Christianity that was doing it. It was, you know, all the religions used religion as a, you know, all countries and kings and stuff used religion as a power hold. You gotta think too.

SPEAKER_02 15:52

Well, I was gonna say too, I was gonna say, not even back then, is you can make the argument that there's there's factions and and groups doing that now. It's 100%. It's it's held the test of time. It's not just something that happened, it's actually still pretty prevalent in today's day.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

Yeah, yeah. And like you gotta think too, back then, they didn't have like police and like law like the how we have in technology, like nothing was scarier than burning in hell for eternity. They, you know, made rules and laws based off religion that was like, hey, you better follow this and be a good person, or you're you're gonna burn in hell.

SPEAKER_02 16:31

So yeah, there's an alternative that everybody was scared of, and that's I don't want to say they used fear as a weapon, but essentially that's what it was.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

We all we use fear today as a weapon. That's why you don't run people over on the side of the road because you don't want to go to jail.

SPEAKER_02 16:44

Right. Like we always use fear. It's that there's that moral rhetoric that everybody sorts sort of has in the back of their mind for the most part. I wouldn't say everybody, but vast majority.

SPEAKER_00 16:53

Yeah. So, you know, and you gotta think too, like they had the first crusade, second crusade, third crusade. You gotta you gotta remember, like, Christians horribly persecuted too. So they went through their whole timeline of being enslaved and being killed if you were a Christian and all that stuff. Back then it was yeah, you had a pro you know, you had people that got sick and tired of getting enslaved and killed and you know, all that stuff. So yeah, they fought back. Of course, the the Vatican and the Pope is gonna endorse them. And then you wanna push, you know, the other group out, like Napoleon has said, and we've said this several times on this podcast, you know, the victors write the history books. So you kind of gotta take everything with a grain of salt too. And you gotta put yours as much as you can, put yourself in their shoes back then in that time period. Like it's just different.

SPEAKER_02 17:49

I agree with that. I think the other cool thing is since they were since they were essentially an extension of the church while they were doing what they were doing, how do you think the psychological impact on like people that they faced was a thing? Like I I have to believe that, like you said, it was the uh like we both sort of said at the beginning and throughout the episode so far, we were talking about the fact that if you went against the church, there were bad things coming your way. Um how do you think that psychological card sort of impacted who they fought?

SPEAKER_00 18:21

Well, I mean, eventually people stopped fighting them because of well, not fighting them, but like trying to take out the higher hierarchy guys because anyone that they were sent to, that the Templars were sent to protect or be stationed anywhere, like they tried taking Crusaders out, they killed someone, like assassinated them. Another one just filled their spot. Like they had so many guys in you know, and think about like what they wore. You just see like those white cloaks with the red cross, and there's you know, thousands of them, like, and you know they're elite warriors. I don't know, you gotta think like that just probably does something psychologically.

SPEAKER_02 19:02

Yeah, I mean intimidating, you know. It's it's almost like uh not only is an extension of the church, but if you're an extension of the church, you're essentially the extension of God. Like God's army communication. Right, exactly. That time that time frame when that was such a huge thing, I could definitely see see it playing a psychological card for sure.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

Like And you gotta think, not only are you gonna die, but they're probably gonna make it not quick. Right. You're probably gonna have a slow death, and then you're gonna be sent to hell.

SPEAKER_02 19:34

Yeah, so it's sort of like the double whammy, like you're getting taken out by essentially God's army, like you said, and then on top of that, since you went against the church, you've got another one coming. Yeah, it's not it's not great. So to that tip, do you think that the blind faith that they had was an advantage or a weakness when they went into war? Do you think it could have been both?

SPEAKER_00 19:53

It probably could be a little bit of both, but I mean in war that probably helps because you're not thinking, oh, should I be doing this? It's just like, yeah, like we're doing this. Like yeah, I think like militaristically, even with our soldiers now, like you are completely stripped of who you are, they break you down and they build you up. You're like a fucking robot. Like we didn't just establish that in the last hundred years. Like that's been a thing for thousands of years. The Romans that like uh all the great armies do it, so I think given put yourself in one of those soldiers' shoes, one of their bodies, like you're probably gonna be very confident and cocky. You have the power of God behind you. Exactly. Like you have the power of God behind you. He's going to bless you and your sword, and you're gonna just go in there completely confident. You're not going in there thinking that you're gonna lose.

SPEAKER_02 20:49

Because essentially, from what we've talked about, failure was not an option for them.

SPEAKER_00 20:53

No, they fought to the death. Like you weren't getting captured, you weren't whatever, you were fighting till the death.

SPEAKER_02 20:58

So essentially they were going for the martyrism type scenario. Yeah. So you think it's more of an advantage than a weakness? Yeah, I think I think when it comes to like given what they were trying to accomplish.

SPEAKER_00 21:10

I mean, yeah, but then here's the thing, too. We can look at Napoleon and be like super confident, all stuff.

SPEAKER_02 21:18

I was gonna say you can look at that, or even something even something closer to to now would be like the the General Custard thing. The little bighorn, like the overconfidence is gonna kick you in the ass sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

Yeah. And like what, Napoleon lost like one or two million of his soldiers because he pushed on through the winter instead of listening to his advisors and said, We can't do this. Like, yeah, you're gonna kill our army, and he fucking decimated millions of his soldiers. Like, at some point, you kind of got but at the same time, here is where I think that blame and whatever like obviously the blame goes on Napoleon, right? If you're a soldier, you need to be able to trust your fucking leaders that they got like. They're going to put you in a position to win. Right.

SPEAKER_02 22:02

So or not necessarily win, but at least be successful.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Yeah. So, like, you know, you you don't want to go in there thinking like, oh, are they no, like, hey, the top dogs know what the fuck they're doing. That's why they have these ranks. That's why they're our leaders. We're gonna go in there and kick some fucking ass because they're putting a they're gonna put us in the best position to be successful, or at least give us a chance. So I think with that thinking, you know, it's they probably like having a blind eye to it is f is probably better than second guessing it. What what do you think?

SPEAKER_02 22:34

Uh I think it could be both. I sort of stand with you on the fact that like I get it. You have like this whole backing of the church and God and the auspiciousness of the whole deal, like you were a chosen soldier, you were folded into you know something that not everybody necessarily gets to do. It's sort of like a chosen soldier type deal. So I get that. That definitely invokes some confidence and would definitely help you. But I think that again, pride is foolhardy. I think that the I genuinely believe that pride comes before the fall.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

I but is it pride or is it belief? Because you gotta remember, like, especially back then. Oh the religion was a life, which it still is for a lot of millions of people today. Like that is a lifestyle. Yeah, it is a belief. I wouldn't say it's pride, it's belief.

SPEAKER_02 23:23

It's it's tough to say what I would do or how I would feel about it because I didn't grow up in the lifestyle, to your point. Exactly. Yeah. If that's all you know, it's it's tough. It's tough. It's kind of like people like to take it on. I mean, you talk about people that are in the Amish community, it's the same sort of thing, right? It's all they grow up knowing. Essentially a lifestyle, it's all they know, and that kind of stuff, which they do have the opportunity. I can't remember what age it is. They do have the opportunity to leave that community, but once they do, I think there's like some shunning that happens or something like that, where essentially they're shut out of the society for the rest of their lives. So you have that that would be sort of another extreme example, whereas like if hey, if I don't do this, and and honor was a big thing back then. So like I would have to believe that being a Templar would like if you have a family, they're like that's like you know, one of one of if not the highest at that point in time, places to get to as far as not just career, but lifestyle and life in general. Like that's like the pinnacle of of like military and that kind of stuff back then.

SPEAKER_00 24:28

Honor and tradition was a big thing, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:31

So you were talking about like the Greeks and the Romans and stuff, like they were the same sort of tip. You think of a place like you think of like an incident like Thermopylae, like it was 300 against what it was a like a million or something like that. It was something something to that effect.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

It was 300 to like I think ten or twenty thousand or something like that. It was something crazy. It was something crazy. It was something crazy.

SPEAKER_02 24:53

It was something crazy, but essentially it's the same, it's the same idea is that when you be when you became a part of that lifestyle, especially with Templars and like that kind of thing, or even like the Spartans, for example, like we were talking about, that was like that was the glory of going to battle was dying on the battlefield. So, and to a certain degree, it's still around today, but that was like I think I think you're right in saying that the the tradition and that kind of stuff was a lot more palpable back then than it is necessarily today, because today, sometime, you know, for the most part, when you were born in that lifestyle, you were going to war. At least now we have some sort of a choice, but that was like your lot in life was to go and die on the battlefield for your country. Which we still do it today, but we still do it today, obviously. It's still around, but at least we have a choice. Like I'm s what I'm getting at is essentially that was like your calling. That was what you did.

SPEAKER_00 25:47

Well, you gotta remember too, like, and there's conflict all over the world right now, but back then it was hand-to-hand combat for the most part, right? Right. Yep. You you were traveling, you know.

SPEAKER_02 25:59

You're looking the the the guy away the guy that you're fighting's literally fight like twelve inches from you.

SPEAKER_00 26:05

Yeah, and all the also like it took how long to get to these places. Right. You were gonna be. Technology, so you gotta think you're with these groups of guys.

SPEAKER_02 26:18

All the fucking time. Not only were they fighting together, but they were living together and all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

They have chastity, they took all the same vows, they're not fucking they're not, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 26:30

Like that's all they know, they're just bred for battle.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

Yeah, yeah, they're like they're like weaponized monks or priests, whatever you want to say.

SPEAKER_02 26:38

But I mean, it's would you almost call it radical? Would you bend it that far?

SPEAKER_00 26:42

No, I wouldn't bend it that far because again, times are so different back then compared to now. Like if somebody did that shit now, it's probably radical. But like, I don't know, maybe it is radical.

SPEAKER_02 26:53

With the with I would say with the state, it was sort of like with the state of things back then. Like I said, you grow up in that society and you grow up in that scenario, that's all you know. It's understandable.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

But and like look at the rest of the Middle East, though, in Europe. Like, look at the other religions, I would argue they were just as extreme.

SPEAKER_01 27:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

You know, so I mean, everybody likes to condemn Christians and Catholics, but it's like if you look at the rest of the world at that time, it's not like they were trying to do something that nobody else was doing, they just happened to do it better and it spread better because of the, you know. I think also you gotta remember, you know, you had Mesopotamia and all that, like you had Rome had fallen, like had grown and then fallen, and like there was a disposition of, you know, like when one big empire fell, everybody was trying to like catch up and take over those little sections and like well, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:49

I mean, you have something that falls like the Roman Empire that's so vast, and then you have people sort of fighting over that empire trying to sort of gain territory and land and leverage and all that kind of shit.

SPEAKER_00 27:59

Because they they grew too big. It's just like with like you know, Alexander the Great. I mean, they conquered he conquered so much territory and so much land that when you know him and then like when you know Caesar and all that fell with the Romans, it was like they could only have so many generals and you know governors could only occupy so much land at one time, yeah. And then, you know, once they find out that the big Pumba's gone, then guess what? Now you got too many chiefs in the fucking circle. So I think they just blew up just like those things did. The only difference was that it wasn't a country, it was a society that was essentially a military powerhouse for the Vatican. It was a religion, not a country. Does that make sense how it's a little different? How I guess like the portrayal is because they weren't fighting for they weren't fighting for a country per se. They were fighting for religion.

SPEAKER_02 28:54

Right. Which is just well they were they were I mean, uh it's like annexing, right? So like essentially, like, they didn't want it to go away, so this is the only and it was under siege, obviously, because it wouldn't have formed out of nothing. Right. So they were trying to protect something, and there's a great quote that all all disagreements eventually end in violence. It's just sort of a fact. Like, if you're getting to a point where you don't agree, at some point you're gonna hit a button on somebody that's gonna provoke violence. It just happens to a certain degree. Like some people have the the presence of mind and that kind of thing to not get there, but at some point there's going to be an altercation, yeah, because you're just not seeing like, and it comes with like the extremist values, right? Is that like you believe something so wholeheartedly that it's a part of your life and it's how you live your life and all that kind of stuff. It's spidered into every facet of your being as a human being because it's all you've known.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

Look at today. Yeah, look here, look at the left and the right. Like the the extreme sides. I'm not talking about the majority where we're right.

SPEAKER_02 30:00

You're not talking about like moderates or like independents or something like that. You're talking about the far left and the far right. Fuck. We're talking about like off the spectrum left and right.

SPEAKER_00 30:09

Oh, yeah. Yeah. You're fucking extremist because they're both just out of this world. It doesn't matter what anybody tells them, it doesn't matter what facts you show them, they're not changing their stance.

SPEAKER_02 30:21

It's almost like a stoic mentality. Like they don't have any, this is where I sit, and you can either like it or get the fuck out.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 30:28

And there's no talking. There's no talking. Like there's no, there's no there's no ideology sharing, there's no like back and forth, there's no debate, there's no nothing. It's just it is what it is. But I think that's an interesting point, just given the fact that we were talking about that, like, could it be an advantage or a disadvantage? So I guess you could you could make an argument for both. I do agree that the confidence thing is probably the most paramount thing out of the the two sides, just because, like I said, at that time, with with everything that was going on, religion was sort of like the the the cornerstone of lifestyle back then, at least for the people we're talking about. It was just a way of life, it's just what happened. Um, but I also I also think another really cool thing that we were going to touch on, and we sort of touched on it in the intro, was the the Templars and how they were sort of economically built up. I thought that was interesting information. Uh so the the cool thing about them is they actually they they constructed and maintained the first international banking system. They were responsible for that banking system. They they I think I even read too that they came up with some kind of credit system for the pilgrims that were traveling.

SPEAKER_00 31:36

Yeah, they issued letters of credit. So what they what they people were giving them all these donations, but there was no way to like keep track of it and stuff, and also people countries actually. This is what gets really crazy. France is why the king wanted them killed, was they were issuing letters of credit to not just people but to countries. And eventually, um, we'll get into that later, but yeah, they I mean they they established the first banking system and credit. They needed a way to keep track of all of the intern because it wasn't just like they were getting property and like you were collecting taxes from your next door neighbor, they were doing it like across borders and shit, yeah. Yes, yes, yes. So they needed a way to keep track of it, and that's what they ended up doing, so like you also touched on too the land ownership across, like we were talking about.

SPEAKER_02 32:29

Like this wasn't like stuff that they were, you know, a country to the left and the country to the right. Like they were taking over some serious ground.

SPEAKER_00 32:36

Yeah, I mean you had kings that were giving leaving the the Templars, land and treasures. So everything from kings all the way down to like literal peasants leaving them like a pig.

SPEAKER_02 32:50

So uh yeah. I wonder if there was like, you know how we have today with like insurance and stuff where it was like a sliding scale. So, like, say for example, you didn't have enough money to go to the doctor, they would have some kind of sliding scale to make it feasible for you without what say you had private insurance, say you had just, you know, say you're using like good RX for like prescriptions or something like that. I wonder if they had that. I didn't do enough research, but I wonder if that was something that they sort of came up with as well. I mean Where like if you didn't have enough money to pay them, like you said, you would give them a pig or a sheep or a goat or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 33:21

That's what they would do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:24

Essentially, they essentially they came up with modern economics for the most part.

SPEAKER_00 33:28

Yeah, they're very innovative. I mean, when you're loaning money to kings, it kind of says something.

SPEAKER_02 33:34

Well, not only does it say something that you're owing them that that they're g that they're giving them money, but the fact that they can't pay it back is actually the wildest thing. Like you you have an organization that's making more money than the king or or is pulling in more revenue and you know than the country. Than than the country itself and the country that they're lending the money to. That's uh that's actually kind of crazy.

SPEAKER_00 33:56

But the other But they're also getting very powerful too. And when you're a king, those are kind of the two kisses of death.

SPEAKER_02 34:04

Money and power. For sure. I thought the no taxation thing was pretty interesting too. That's because they were part of the church. So they weren't they weren't taxing so they weren't asking for interest. They were just asking for what they gave you back. And that's I s that's kind of hard to fathom that you would think with you know the land the land for the most part that they were conquering was more or less untouchable. So you would have to think the amount of wealth that these countries or these these kings had was pretty vast, and like precious metals and that kind of thing, like gold and silver and that kind of stuff. It's kind of crazy that they wouldn't be able to actually throw it back at him. That's actually really weird and an interesting point. Uh but so like modern parallels, like for example, they're the reason one of the reasons it's not one of the paramount reasons why we have like banks and corporations and all that kind of stuff, like you see like Ford or GM, if you're talking about automotive or Tesla, they sort of set the standard for what was to become those companies, like how they were formed and that kind of thing. And then you also have the NGOs with the global influence, too, which I thought was an interesting point as well.

SPEAKER_00 35:07

Yeah. And I mean, something for our listeners to remember, I know we talked about this very early on when we talked about the Sumerians and stuff like that, but you know, 3000 to 2000 BCE, that's when they first came out with interest on credit. It was that early? Wow. Sumerians. It was the Sumerians and the Babylonians created interest.

SPEAKER_02 35:31

Well, I know that the you're pretty big, you're pretty big into Egyptology. I know the Egyptians had taxation and all that kind of stuff, so that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 35:38

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. But I don't know how to do that.

SPEAKER_02 35:40

How did the just for just for context sake, how did the Egyptians handle that? You know more about that than I do. I mean, I can look if you give me a second here. Yeah, I'm just kind of curious because it's always interesting, you know, prosperous societies like Spartans had it, Romans had it, Greeks had it. Like so it's been around for a hot minute. So I guess that's the biggest thing is that maybe maybe what we're sort of getting at with them with the banking system, it was the first thing that was like documented like to a T, it sounds like.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

Well, they created like deeds and like titles, you know. Right. That's what I'm saying. It's like that they progressed it forward versus just keeping the internationally, not just local, which I think like I think the Sumerians and like Egyptians and all that, I think they did keep track of stuff, but I don't know if it was on like an international level.

SPEAKER_02 36:25

So it was more like a local level between what the what the territory was, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 36:29

Again, that's a guess. That's what I'm an educational guess. I don't don't people don't crucify me on that. So taxation was what people with the state ancient Egypt ran on a tax in kind system, not money taxes for most people. They had a grain tax, which was 10 to 20 percent of the harvest, and bad years rates could be adjusted. They had a labor tax, citizens owned owed weeks of labor per year, and that labor was canals, temples, and pyramids, livestock and goods, so they had taxes on cattle, oil, beer, linen, and that stuff. Then they had a land tax based on Nile flood levels measured by millimeters. Taxes were assessed and recorded by scribes, making Egypt one of the earliest bureaucratic tax states. Interest on loans for ancient Egypt. They had a 33 and a third annual grain loan tax. So, example, if you borrowed a hundred sacks, you had to repay 133 sacks of grain. So you were taxed on objects, not money. Okay. Silver loans, usually 20% annual, short-term emergency loans could be higher. These rates are recorded in legal documents like Middle Kingdom contracts, New Kingdom Temple Archives, Demotic Legal Papy, which is a later period. Interest was often simple interest not compounded, so they weren't completely uh screwing them over.

SPEAKER_02 37:59

I think it's interesting to note too is that like with with all this talk about like money and wealth and stuff, despite the vows, they became immensely wealthy. I think that's kind of an interesting contradiction. They became wealthy because of the Vatican. Right. But like what I'm saying is is they took the the the three vows that we talked about, but then they ended up sort of flipping that script, which is interesting.

SPEAKER_00 38:20

Well, they took the vows, okay, but you gotta remember, like, think if they did get taxed, they wouldn't have got it wouldn't have been as big.

SPEAKER_02 38:28

They were talking about them themselves or you're talking okay.

SPEAKER_00 38:31

If they would have been taxed, the whole reason why they got so powerful was because there was no no country could tax nobody could tax them.

SPEAKER_02 38:38

Right.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

You know, like think about why, like, go to downtown Cleveland. Like when Paul and I worked for that moving company, you worked for them too a little bit. Like, we would go when we did the the voting machine gig when we had to go, you know, our company got the the job to go and deliver all the voting machines and then we had to go pick them up. Do you know how many churches, small churches are in downtown Cleveland? Just downtown Cleveland.

SPEAKER_02 39:03

Yeah, it doesn't surprise me.

SPEAKER_00 39:04

And like they're not in like actual churches, they're in like rundown buildings that you're like, this guy is definitely a scammer. Like, are they actually holding a service here? You know, that's a ta like they don't get taxed. So like it's been going on for a long time. You know, if you could you imagine if you didn't have to pay taxes, Blake?

SPEAKER_02 39:24

Oh, I can't. Like, yeah, but I mean I can, but it's become such like a such like a staple in just life that I think a lot of people just like uh see this is the thing, is when I do my taxes, for example, I don't know how you do them, I take my sweet ass time doing my taxes because like when when I do my taxes, I make sure that I have my W-2 in front of me and all that kind of stuff. Like I pay an accountant. But you understand what I'm saying though, right? Like you I want to make sure that everything is where it's supposed to be, like, because more often than not, there's a refund that comes back from your taxes, they overtax you.

SPEAKER_00 40:02

Yeah, absolutely. But that's why, like, you want to get an accountant because they know all the tricks and the trades. Like, you don't want to use TurboTax or any of those sites because there's been huge lawsuits because they've actually screwed people out of money, and uh you're better off paying an accountant because they know how to get you more money back because that's like fucking 70,000 pages of tax law.

SPEAKER_02 40:23

Yeah, and regular Joe Schmoe's not gonna know about all that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 40:27

Exactly. So yeah, fun fact, don't use TurboTax.

SPEAKER_02 40:32

So I know we talked about the Temple Mount and that kind of stuff. What do you know about like I know we had done some research, so there was like an egg like excavated underground. Was that necessarily was the Temple Mount? I'm assuming I think we talked about it or touched on it. That was essentially like their meeting place.

SPEAKER_01 40:49

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 40:50

So that's essentially that was essentially their headquarters, I think we touched on, right?

SPEAKER_00 40:54

Yeah, that was the headquarters.

SPEAKER_02 40:56

Um but I know we talked about the Ark of the Covenant, ancient scrolls, which would be like auspicious information that nobody else had access to. We talked about like the pre-Christian knowledge that would like they had access to, like the stuff from the start of Christianity that nobody else knew essentially, maybe at that time, maybe it's become a little bit more common knowledge now. And then they had like insight into lost civilizations that nobody knew about, and then they had like the sacred geometry with like the uh I forget what they touched on, but there were a couple different instances in Christianity about sacred geometry, which I thought was interesting. Why do you think the lack of like so so like the Temple Mount that was sort of like their sacred headquarters, right? So there wasn't a lot of people, unless you were a part of the order itself, that had access to that information. Why do you think the lack of documentation on the Templars and like what they had access to, do you think that's suspicious? Like, where do you sit on that? Do you think there was a lot more? Do you think it was a lot more to them than there is led to believe?

SPEAKER_00 41:52

I'm sure, absolutely. But again, you're dealing with the Vatican, you're dealing with the Pope. Think about this like the Vatican is its own city state. Right, it's a sovereign, it's a sovereign state, right? The Vatican has its own bank and its own currency. Like it is separate from Italy.

SPEAKER_02 42:08

It's not Italy. It's not Italy, it's not even Rome.

SPEAKER_00 42:11

No, it is its own.

SPEAKER_02 42:13

Once you step inside that gate, everything that you had on the outside is vilified. It's not it's it's for not.

SPEAKER_00 42:20

So yeah, no, I think there's again, there's probably a ton in the secret archives on the Templars that you know, think about just like the amount of books, dude. Think about the amount like I guarantee you there's okay, so if they were acting on behalf of the Pope, there's gotta be records there, right? Of what they did and orders they were given and that kind of stuff, yeah, for sure. And meetings and stuff, like they kept track of that shit. So, you know.

SPEAKER_02 42:47

I mean, if you're talking about starting the first banking system and how auspicious they were and they were basically everywhere, I mean, I I would think that there's a pretty good substantial corner of that archive that's probably devoted to them, if they were that big and that and that influential. Yep. Yeah, absolutely. So the next thing I sort of wanted to get into too was what we sort of touched on before was one of the sacred relics. If you guys haven't heard of the Holy Grail, you've probably been living under a rock. If you haven't heard of the Ark of the Covenant, that's a pretty auspicious one, too. So if anybody doesn't know the the allure of the Holy Grail, essentially what the Holy Grail was is their if if you guys aren't familiar with the Last Supper, it was basically the last dinner that Christ had with his disciples before he was crucified. That's essentially the short version. And essentially the wine glass or the chalice that Christ used to basically use as a symbol of his blood was essentially that cup and the wine that was in the cup. So that's essentially what the holy grail was from a very generalized perspective. There's also some alternative theories of that grail. It was it was the grail of Mary Magdalene. So essentially the idea was that the chalice, so if Obviously, we're on audio, so people can't see my hands. But if you look at a woman's womb, essentially that was the symbol of the chalice. Essentially, that's what the chalice was symbolizing. There's also that it's the grail of the bloodline of Jesus, and as well as also, also as well, it is known as like a knowledge base. So, like if you were to drink from that cup, you would essentially have all the information that was that has ever been essentially. So, with those three or four, I guess, alternative theories, and you know, the main view essentially is the cup from the last supper. What do you think do you which one do you think is more plausible out of those four? Where do you sort of sit with that one? Which one makes the most sense to you?

SPEAKER_00 44:37

Probably the cup from the last supper. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 44:39

Do you have a reason why? Considering that's the most traditional value, that that's the most like sought after one, the one that's the most like, I guess, consistent across the consistent across the religion or the conspiracy theory?

SPEAKER_00 44:51

I would say it's just because it's essentially other than on the cross, that's the last place where he, you know, the last thing that he touched that you know they all drank out of. You would think that one of them would probably keep that. Yeah. They knew something was gonna happen. Because he said one of you is gonna betray me.

SPEAKER_02 45:10

No, he was very for it was very foreshadowing for sure. So they essentially knew that it was an important, important event for sure.

SPEAKER_00 45:18

Yeah, I don't know. I mean that the the womb one is interesting. I don't know, I'd I'd I'd I'd still have to go with like actual like cup that he drank from, but that's one that like I haven't given a lot of thought on. So you kind of you kinda got my gears rolling there blocky.

SPEAKER_02 45:35

I'll sort of tell you what I I I think the the grail is knowledge would make sense.

SPEAKER_00 45:40

Yeah, that's an interesting one.

SPEAKER_02 45:42

The reason why I think that is because you think of like transference of energy, for example. Mm-hmm. So obviously, you know, in the world of Christianity and that kind of stuff, essentially Christ is like the end all be all. He's like the he's the embodiment of God on earth, essentially. So the transference of energy from drinking from that cup, if you believe in that sort of thing, it makes it it makes it ethereal. Does that make sense? That makes sense. So it it it all sort of depends, like since I'm agnostic, essentially, the reason why I say it's a transference of energy because it's essentially the same thing. He was using the cup in the bread essentially as his body and blood. And essentially, if you took that, like you get what I'm saying? Like it wasn't only symbolic, but essentially from from that point of view, you were essentially absorbing his power. So that's where the transference of energy thing sort of comes up. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 46:33

No, yeah, that's a perfectly good explanation.

SPEAKER_02 46:36

It's a sort of a reach, it's sort of an extension of that. But if you think about it more logically than from a theoretical, a religious point of view, it sort of makes sense. So you could you could take that from the religious point of view and then you could use that as like a more logical, I guess, scientific point of view. They sort of say the same thing, but from two different conversations. Yeah. But the reason why I think the Templars mattered with that stuff is essentially the Holy Grail, to be specific, is because they were protecting lineage of Christ. So, like you have, for example, I don't know if you've ever seen it. Have you seen the Da Vinci Code? Wild take, wild take on this whole scenario, right? A lot of misinformation and that kind of thing, but essentially it says the same thing is that you're talking about like if Christ was indeed human on earth, he would have had to have had some form of lineage.

SPEAKER_00 47:24

Well, I don't know if it's necessarily but that's the scientific aspect.

SPEAKER_02 47:28

I'm not saying that's correct.

SPEAKER_00 47:30

No, no, but what I'm saying is it's not necessarily what it is, is that, and dad actually agreed with this. If you read, you know, the uh we gotta do an episode on the Dead Sea Scrolls. If you study the Dead Sea Scrolls and you study the ancient texts and stuff like that, what's are you familiar with the Dead Sea Scroll?

SPEAKER_02 47:49

I know you've touched on it before. We haven't talked about it in a long time, though.

SPEAKER_00 47:52

Like it is a first person view. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember now. I remember now. So it is a first-person view.

SPEAKER_02 48:00

First person view on on Jesus Christ, yes.

SPEAKER_00 48:03

Yes. So there's a lot of proof and evidence that Jesus had a lover and it was Mary Magdalene. And there's some pretty significant evidence that that they had a child. So that is, you know, the Da Vinci Code.

SPEAKER_02 48:19

I was gonna say if you've never seen the movie Tom Hanks at one of his best, I love those movies, that and Angels and Demons. It gets some bad rap, but they're good for like a uh entertainment, just shut your brain off and just exactly have some like misinformation and a little bit of a history lesson, but don't take it for just take it for what it is. Good movies, good movies.

SPEAKER_00 48:38

Yeah. Um, but there's, you know, there's a lot of we're never gonna know until we're gone, and if there is life after death, then you'll know. If there's not, then you're just gone. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 48:51

We all have to take the ride, it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_00 48:55

I think it's you know, the other thing too is we you talked about the Ark of the Covenant. We've talked about the pyramid of Giza before. Okay. Do you remember when we were when we were talking about the pyramid of Giza when you go into the the king's chamber? Okay, and you got the the empty sarcophagus there, the big granite sarcophagus. Do you know what's very interesting about the pyramids in general, and then also that sarcophagus? I can't remember if we talked about this, but I think we might have done it.

SPEAKER_02 49:24

I think we might have done it in the uh one of the we've done it in one of the episodes. We definitely touched on it for sure.

SPEAKER_00 49:29

We definitely did. So, but this ties into the Ark of the Covenant. True or false, there was a king found in the King's Chamber. Well, you told me that it was false. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:40

Um not only that, because you said I think you actually touched on to make make your point even more, they weren't like didn't you tell me or something like that, or touched on the fact that they've never found a body within one of the pyramids?

SPEAKER_00 49:51

Correct. And not only that, like there's no hieroglyphics anywhere in the pyramids. If you go to any of the temples, any of the, you know, in e ancient Egypt, they decorated everything in hieroglyphics. The fucking pillars, the walls, the ceiling, the you know, some of the floors. Okay. The steps leading down to it. I'm gonna look it up while I'm talking here and I'll share the screen so you can see it.

SPEAKER_02 50:14

Well, didn't you say the like the I think you touched on I think you touched on, I think it maybe it was King Tut that like maybe it was some maybe it was another one. I can't remember which one you touched on specifically, but that one rings true. The curse a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 50:26

The cursed that the people died.

SPEAKER_02 50:28

It was either that one or there you told me somebody like an excavator or like an archaeologist had like a week left and then like s just like randomly found something or something like that. Didn't you say something about that?

SPEAKER_00 50:38

That was that was King Tut. He had a week left of his expedition. He was coming down a little to the nitty-gritty of it, and uh literally they found it. But and what's really interesting is the main three or four people that were there when they opened the the the door of the tomb, uh, they all died within like a year, and what's really fucking crazy is that each person s died in very mysterious ways. Like unexplainable type shit. That replicated how Tut died, they believe.

unknown 51:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:09

I think that's a good thing. Like the one dude died from a fucking the one dude died from a mosquito bite on his cheek, which is they said was like the same fucking thing that happened to him, and like all sorts of crazy shit. Anyway, get back to the pyramid. If you look at that sarcophagus, there's no hieroglyphics on it. There's no hieroglyphics in the pyramid. A lot of your, you know, not mainstream archaeologists, they think that the pyramids were a power house, a factory type thing for power for energy, and they think that that quote unquote sarcophagus actually held one of the original arcs.

SPEAKER_02 51:44

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 51:45

What do you what are your thoughts about that? Because I'm I'm gonna pull up pictures of this so you can take a look at it real quick, but go ahead. What what what do you think?

SPEAKER_02 51:53

I like I said, or like you said earlier, history is written by the victors, so there's no way for us to truly know. I don't think there's too much lost history and stuff that's been doctored and that kind of thing, but it would make I mean, if you take it all the way back to like what we were talking about in a couple episodes as far as like ethereal belief and that kind of stuff, I think it comes down to that because something that powerful, somebody's gonna want to shut it off, shut it down, keep it secret. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 52:19

So no hieroglyphs, right? And then look at that.

SPEAKER_02 52:23

Yeah, that's that's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 52:25

Yeah, it's like broken off. And the the shafts in there, like if you look at this, and recently they found, you know, stuff under the pyramids, which the Egyptian government's saying isn't true, but they've used light iron, ground penetrating right radar, and there's a whole the labyrinth of uh Egypt is definitely down there. So they're they're hiding stuff. So that's pretty big. But look at this, like look, no hieroglyphs, like look how big and massive that chamber. What are you building that for?

SPEAKER_02 52:58

Yeah. It's it's definitely a question mark, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_00 53:01

So they b like they had what's what's called mana, and it's a chemical p compound that they believe that that the mana was actually a power source that they put in the covenant in the ark.

SPEAKER_02 53:12

Yeah, mana's like if you're if you're gonna get nerdy, it's sort of like a mystical power.

SPEAKER_00 53:17

Well, they actually created a substance. There's a substance called mana. You can create it now. It's an ancient sub uh substance um that you can uh that they they've created and it's uh believe it's a conductor. That makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 53:34

And it gives off energy, that makes a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_00 53:36

Extreme energy, yes, because it was so it's said that you know, anyone that got close to the arc, they got severe burns and almost like their hair started falling off, almost like it was like a nuclear reactor.

SPEAKER_02 53:50

Right. That's interest that's an interesting tip too. That's it would be an interesting rabbit hole to go down as well.

SPEAKER_00 53:55

Yeah. Like we could do an episode on the the Ark of the Covenant itself.

SPEAKER_02 53:59

Yeah. Well, I mean, I could I we could probably do it's the general episodes we've done, we could take little snippets and do episodes on each one on like, you know, we did one on Blackbeard, we did one on, you know, we could do one on all five of those people we did in the pirate episode last episode. But getting back on getting back on track, uh so we sort of set the scene as far as you know what they were what they were about, sort of like their rise to power banking system we talked about. We talked about like them creating the first banking system and all that kind of stuff. I think the more interesting thing than their rise was their downfall. I think that's an interesting point to touch on, and it's important because of how it happened and sort of the parameters of how it happened. So I wanted to sort of get into like the accusations and stuff that they were sort of they weren't really doing the Lord's work, they were doing the opposite, which I think is an interesting tip, uh, because there were like there were accusations towards the end of them being a thing or the the the charter of what they were supposed to be with like the devil worship. I know that we had talked about off-air the Baphomet stuff as far as like what that was. I think that's an interesting notion. But just to give context, so the devil worship stuff, so just for context of what Baphamet was, I just want to give a little context of what that is, so we talk about in case anybody's not familiar. It's a symbolic, often goat-headed figure associated with occultism representing the union of opposites, balance, and enlightenment. So though historically it's linked to accusess accusations against the Templar specifically, and it was later adopted or adapted as a symbol of Satanism, which is interesting. Kind of going the other way since we talked about extremes. And while it's sometimes confused with Satan, the iconic image or image popularized by El Eliphys Levi and by his complex esoteric concepts like male-female, spirit matter, and the alchemical Solved Coagula serving as a mirror for spiritual understanding. So that's a quick and dirty way of like what we're talking about. So with the accusations, Dan, do you think like there was like a spinning on the cross accusation, obscene rituals, like they were doing like you know, sexual rituals and sacrifices and all that kind of stuff? So do you think that the temp where do you sort of stand on the accusations? Do you think they're true and why? And do you think they're false?

SPEAKER_00 56:24

I think they're false because King Philip wasn't look at the history books, is a royal piece of shit. He owed them too much money. The only way he's gonna get the backing of the people of France is to charge the Templars for everything that you're not allowed to do, according to their religion. It was a coup. Like they tortured them and then got some of them to admit while they're being tortured to some of this shit, and then when they were up there getting executed, they took back their confession. Like, you mean to tell me that you owe that much debt, and then you're just they just so happen to be doing all this stuff, and they take these oaths, and they're not fucking, they're not doing like you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 57:10

Like that's completely taken the other way. It's amazing, it's it's like creating a rumor for rumors' sake to stir shit up.

SPEAKER_00 57:17

Yeah, you just wanted to get the people's backing. Like, you know, just like it would be just like what the media does today and what our government does today with people that they want to silence and get rid of. What do they do? They turn the narrative, they make them out to be the bad person. Like the playbook that is used today has been used for thousands of years. Technology's changed, but the playbook is the same.

SPEAKER_02 57:41

Yeah. It hasn't changed much, that's for sure. It's basically bearing bearing down and taking away somebody's entire livelihood or their way of life.

SPEAKER_00 57:48

Yeah. And unfortunately, the majority Because you make because you make waves. And the majority of people in this world are uneducated and don't critically think and think for themselves. They just think how they're they're taught how to think. And especially back then, you really weren't allowed to have your own opinion back then. So whatever the king said was kind of like law. And like, don't forget, like, again, back then, like kings were appointed by the bloodline. They were, you know, god godly appointed through their bloodline. So whatever you know the king said was essentially what God said. So yeah. Sorry, that was my rant. How do you feel? How do you feel?

SPEAKER_02 58:28

Well, I I could definitely see the scapegoat aspect that you're talking about. So I sort of side with that. Is that when people are backed up into a corner, we've all been there, they come up with wild accusations and like anything to sort of they anything to sort of protect themselves from what they're doing wrong. So I definitely side with you on that. It's the excuse so they don't have to pay back or make reparations for everything that has happened. It's a way to get ahead, I guess, is my point. Doesn't make it right, doesn't make it anything. It's when people are backed up into a corner, you start to get desperate.

SPEAKER_00 59:01

Yeah. And it says here, reading about King Philip the Fourth. He had even data against the church because of taxes.

SPEAKER_02 59:12

They're non-taxes, so there was uh there was a there was there was essentially Tinder to the flame, not just got it. That makes a lot of sense. But uh I think the other interesting thing about the date of when all of this happened when they were accused of all this stuff and sort of started hunting them down was Friday the thirteenth. Yeah. A lot of people attribute Friday the thirteenth as bad luck. This is actually where it stemmed from, in case anybody was curious. Yeah, not the Halloween movies. Yeah, the but like you said, there were a lot of a lot of contributing factors to why this happened. The King Philip IV, deeply in debt, he coordinated arrests and basically hunt hunted them down in simultaneous fashion to get all of the Templars that were essentially in France, and then I don't know, I'm I'm assuming it sort of spidered after all like it sort of became a whirlwind and a tumbleweed at that point. So everybody was sort of on board. Slowly but surely it just sort of slowly but surely it just started happening.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:08

So he got Pope Clement the Fifth Clementine the Fifth elected. Okay. He like helped get him elected from everything I read, and he put immense pressure on the Pope to renounce them. Yeah, that's yeah, the Pope caved. So once the Pope said, Yeah, like they're you know no longer a part of the Vatican and they're all bad and blah, blah, blah. That's when it really, really, really started to dismantle.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:36

Yeah, but as as far as the accusations, because I think this is interest this is interesting and it's also really important. So the main like four things from the research that they did that they were charged with or for the they were accused of and then eventually charged was was the heresy aspect essentially going against the church. Idol worship, which we talked about and touched on, was the Bothamet, the mysterious idol, their icon that they now is associated with Satanism and all that kind of stuff that they were sort of idolizing. Like I said, spinning on the cross, and as well as secret initiation rights that were not a part of the original doctrine that they were given by the church. So essentially, all four point to essentially like using their power, then this was all accusation, like I said, pulling away from what they were originally founded and supposed to do. They essentially went the complete opposite, according to King Philip IV and obviously many other people to basically wipe them out. But like I s like you said, also a lot of confessions that they got from the people that were in the Knights type knights templar, they were done under torture, they were done under really like heinous conditions. And essentially the oath that they took, the oaths that they took, or the vows that they took were basically renounced so that they wouldn't die and they ended up dying anyways. So pretty, pretty, pretty heinous point in time, especially for basically wiping out an entire order of people. Because, like I said, they were no small faction. They were back, like we said over the episode, they were back by the church. They started original nine members, and then through that, I can only imagine how many people were were filtered in and brought into the fold after that once it became what it was. But another really, really symbolic figure in this whole, I guess, play in front of us was the Jacques Des Malloy individual. So Jacques Des Malloy essentially was, I believe he was one of the original nine, I believe. Let me look here. Let me just find out. He was the grandmaster goal as a grandmaster, yeah. So he was a pretty symbolic figure within there, his final execution and the legend alleged curse that came after that. I kind of want to look that up because I don't want to butcher it. But I believe what happened was is he put like a curse on a certain number of individuals, and within a year, like you said, I think they all like dropped dead. I think that's what happened, but let me just fact track in real quick.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:54

Both he cursed the Pope and the King and both died within a year.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:57

Yeah, so yeah, exactly. Yep. So that's that's interesting because if you're talking about like the power of God backing you, essentially they were doing exactly what they were supposed to do, and maybe that was like the penance for the church for basically turning their thumbing the nose thumbing the nose at them. Because like you said, it sounded like they're not necessarily I mean, you can call it what it is, I guess. It's a little bit of political corruption going on. Yeah. Yeah, so essentially they put somebody in power and maybe that snowballed and you know what I mean? Like they just eventually started taking them out and excommunicating them and all that kind of stuff because of the of the of the corruption. I I have to believe I have to believe that was some in some form or fashion a objective of what was going on with that whole ordeal. Yeah. So just to discuss this a little bit further, do you think this was somebody seeing a group of people or a faction getting too powerful? Do you think it was justice or do you think it was more of a reset?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:58

No, they got way too powerful. Way too powerful. He owed them too much money, they had power. Think about it, they had m land, money, and an army, you know. Because essentially, like you gotta think, like, if if he owed them too much money, okay, like what's next? Do they dethrone him?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:16

Yeah, if we're talking about snowballs, they were already in a bad way, so this was sort of like their their last resort, it sounds like, from that point of view. But do you think there was fear of like overthrowing? Overthronement? Probably. Like they got to the point where they saw like an excess an existential or like external group of people getting more powerful than even the state was. Maybe. Because you have to believe that not only did they have like the whole aura of being religious fighters, but they also probably had a lot of the backing of the people that were around them. And if you have the voice of the people, that can be a really, really dangerous thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:58

Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, it's kind of a recipe for disaster with them.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:03

So, like it like you talk about like the political influence and just having the sway of like, like I said, people around them, all that kind of stuff. It was kind of all going in their favor. Do you think it was sort of like a corner type scenario where they were like, oh fuck, if we don't put a we don't put a lid on this shit now, it's gonna be bad. Like, it's even gonna be even worse than it is right now.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:22

Well, he already had a thing for the church in the taxation, so he owes them a bunch of money. He sees them making a bunch of money, not getting taxed, yet, you know, his people get taxed. I'm sure he's paying taxes. So, you know, he already had a thing really against the church already, and they were the church's military. How do you how do you, you know, defeat that? Dismantle.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:45

Dismantle it.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:46

Yeah. Yep. Blow it up from the inside.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:48

So So I yeah, I like I said earlier too, I think another really cool thing about the Templars is that they never they went away, right? To a certain degree. They were sort of silenced if you want to use that word. I don't think they ever really went away. There's been numerous theories and like factual information that they sort of folded into the Freemasons and other sects of like secret societies and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:10

Yeah, there was a lot of ships that actually left there between the years that uh they think that a bunch of them got out. Actually, they think they came to the new world before Columbus. So Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:23

Well, you were talking about the ships disappearing from France and that kind of thing. Do you know anything about, or maybe you can look it up because I'm not familiar with this? The Scotland and the Bannock Burn scenario. Do you know anything about that? No. I know that the Swiss banking origins thing that we looked up, I thought was pretty cool as well. I thought that was pretty dope. Because you're talking about a first financial system, and I would have to believe I think the sw the Swedes, I think they have one of the best banking systems in the world, if I'm not mistaken. Is that not correct? So yeah. But the Portugal orders of Christ Order of Christ, I want to look that up too, because that was something that we sort of wanted to touch on too.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:57

Yeah, so Scotland and Anakurn. I was fought June 23rd, 24th, 1314, between the army of Robert, the Bruce, King of Scots, and the army of King Edward II of England. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:13

There was also like go ahead. Go ahead and keep looking.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:17

I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna touch on the so I just looked up the Portugal Order of Christ. I thought this was interesting. Um so the Portuguese Order of Christ or Ordem de Cristo is a historic military order successor to the Knights Templar, founded in Portugal in 1318. It played a key role in the age of discovery, becoming a national symbol and evolving into a prestigious honor awarded by the president of Portugal for exceptional service to the country featuring the iconic Red Cross of Christ and its insignia and Portuguese flags. So essentially you're talking about a relic from the Templar that still essentially holds their symbol. So like that's that's interesting, just for the sheer fact that it could be like a lost piece of like symbolism, so they're still around. Mm-hmm. In some form of foundation.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:01

Yeah. Yeah, it also possibly ran to Scotland, by the way.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:05

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:06

Why the Templars would flee to Scotland. Templars arrested in 1307, Battle of Bonnockburn. It was 1314, Scotland desperately needed trained cavalry, disciplined, and experienced commanders. Red flag coincidences, knights disappear from France, appearance of heavily armored disciplined cavalry. Shortly after in Scotland, Robert the Bruce suddenly wins against overwhelming odds against England. Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:32

That's pretty crazy.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:33

So but I think that I mean I think they some of them got away.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:38

You think they got away? I think some of them did, yeah. Some of them did. It would make sense. Because the one one of the key ideas I think that sort of encompasses the episode is that we talked about the transference of energy and like energy doesn't go away, it just transfers from one party to the other. Um that power doesn't vanish, it just relocates, it sort of finds its own new place to be. Do you think that's a true fact? How do you feel about that? You think there are do you think there are there are there are certain instances of stuff that gets that big that never truly go away? It just sort of it sort of changes and sort of adapts, but it never really vanishes. That's sort of how I feel about it. Where do you stand on that?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:19

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think they probably evolved into the Freemasons and some of the other secret organizations and stuff. You know, I think, dude, you gotta think, like, some of those guys probably just vanished and took their wealth with them and went somewhere else and started a whole new life. They didn't have face ID back then. Right. Like, you know how easy it probably was if you had some type of wealth to just go create a new you? Like, I guarantee you that's what happened. Guarantee it. It was like the medieval version of the uh of the witness protection program.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:50

It's not it's a crazy stretch. I mean, yeah. But essentially you would you would think that like they would have to. I mean, the other really interesting thing is where would they go? Like, you would have to believe that there would be so much secrecy if you were a part of something like that that you wouldn't be able to trust anybody if you were trying to like excommunicate or go into exile or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:10

That's why they probably went to I would say think about this, okay? Scotland to like Iceland over Greenland to the US or Canada. You know, just New World, maybe even down south to South America.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:26

Yeah. I mean, it would just be interesting to f like if we could probably I might be able to find some information on this. There might be somebody that might be I doubt that there's information on it that's concrete. It's probably just a theory or like that kind of stuff. So the interesting thing would be like if they ever touched on somebody that was able to like resurface. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:44

So you ready for this one? Yeah. So here's the smoking gun, Rosalind Chapel. Why Rosalind is important? It was built decades after Bannockburn, filled with Templar imagery, non-Christian symbolism, pre-Columbian plant carvings, corn and aloe. So corn, if you remember, was South America, right? That's where it originated. Link to the Sinclair family Templar link. Sinclair is connected to Scottish nobility, long-standing Templar sympathizers, alleged guardians of Templar knowledge. Um, so here's the question I have for you. How does a chapel built before Columbus show new world plants? That's a good question. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:29

Yeah, I don't know. That's where is it located? That's in Scotland. Well, it's in Scotland, okay. Yeah, I mean, they were essentially I wouldn't say they were they were sort of their general like place of operation was essentially what we were talking about before. So if they wouldn't have excommunicated or made it there, how would it have gotten there? Yeah, that makes that's interesting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:52

I think like, dude, they're so good at symbolism, they were so good at you know conquering all these different like countries and all that stuff. You gotta think they probably had a pretty decent navy. I mean, they had fucking armies for Christ's sake, they had to have had a navy to travel. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:07

From you know, well, we talked about before that they had like I don't know if I touched on it, they had like fleets of ships and stuff like that as well. So it wasn't just them like they weren't land bearing, they were seafaring as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:17

Yeah, so you gotta think like if shit's going down, like, hey, we're just we're just gonna go this way. We're just gonna hop on the boat and if we fall off the face of the earth, if it's flat, then we fall off the face of the earth. But we're gonna go until we at least get to the other side of Asia. Because you gotta think, they probably thought, like, Columbus, okay, we're gonna get to Asia, but we're gonna go on the other side the long way. Right. You know, because let's be honest, traveling the seas back then in what they had, um, it took a lot of luck. Yeah, it wasn't ideal. It took you had to be a you had to have a lot of luck, and don't forget, they had God on their side, they had that belief. So it was like, hey, we're gonna be protected, we're just gonna go this way. Yeah, that makes sense. And and if you think about it too, if you take off from France, they already had their origins in Africa, right? Essentially with with Israel, with the Holy Land. So if you if they just follow the shoreline of Africa and then go off like the the southern or not southern, but like that west end coastline and then just go from west coast of Africa, they're gonna hit a eastern shoreline of South America.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:28

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I mean, like it's like you said, how would the symbolism end up on the other side? Yeah, that doesn't make sense unless so they had to go back and forth. Right. Yeah. Or like, you know, you know, they probably ran into Vikings and shit too. Well, yeah, going through the Nordic countries, I'm sure they I'm sure they came across multiple instances of that.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:48

They had to have gone different routes too. There couldn't have just been like one fucking group because how the hell do you have Templar ancient Templar relics showing up in Nova Scotia and then also having them in fucking South America?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:01

Yeah. So they were sort of all over the place. Like, like I said, yeah, they're sort of all over the place.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:07

There's also supposedly they found stuff in the Grand Canyon, but the Smithsonian confiscated it, and now like that part of the Grand Canyon is government-owned and you can't fucking go there at all. There's like supposedly caves where they found ancient Egyptian carvings and like Templar relics and all sorts of shit.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:26

Yeah. Well, getting into like I know we had talked about the Freemasons and stuff like that too in the secret societies. So, like, we talked about the Portugal Order, Order of Christ, and then you touched on what was the other one we touched on that you looked up? Scotland. The Scotland Bannock Burn. Yeah, that's right. Correct. Yeah. So you have like the symbology that's similar, the temple imagery that you sort of touched on with the Rosalind Chapel in Scotland. Initiation rituals for Freemasons are not carbon copy, but they're similar from the research that we did. And you also have like the degrees of knowledge of like the Freemasons have insight into a lot of things that aren't public knowledge when it comes to that kind of stuff. Do you think it would do you think now, as opposed to then or vice versa, do you think it was more of an influence type of scenario or more of a control scenario? Where do you stand on that one? Like, do you think one is more now versus then? So, like, would you frame it as like now is more of an influence type situation with what they are now versus control or vice versa? How would you sort of frame it present and past with those two? Control probably back then and then like influence now, I guess. I would sort of sit with the same sort of idea.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:35

You know, because I mean like what they're technically disbanded now. Right. So they don't technically have a control, which I just I think they passed created the Freemasons and some of the other ones. I think they got I think what happened, Blake, was you had this. They were all one.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:50

Yeah, it's splintered.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:51

And then shit happened and it splintered and they went off into their own sex. Like I think the Knights of Columbus, I think the Freemasons, I you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 1:15:59

Like I think it's it's all sort of part of the same idea, it's just different sex of the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:05

Yeah, because if you like if you read up and do some studying on like Knights of Columbus and Freemasons and like all the other secret organizations out there, secret societies, like huge in what symbolism, right? Not necessarily religion, but like God kind of, right? The idea, yeah, I would agree with that. Ritualistic as fuck. All of them. So I think they're core, like they all have the same base core value, and then that kind of grew and went splintered with their own sex and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:37

So essentially they had the same founding charter idea, but it's a little bit different depending on which one you talk to. Is that sort of what you're getting?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:45

Yeah, it it yeah, it's almost like, you know, there's different sex of Christianity, there's different sex of Judaism that think it's the same thing. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:53

Okay. Yeah. That's fair. I would sort of agree. I I would sort of agree. I think that right now there's probably some form of control, but I think it's more of an influence now. It's not as like in your like, for example, you know, everybody knew who the Knights Templar were. Like when you saw a Knights Templar individual coming at you, you knew what was going on, right? Now they've not necessarily gone underground with like Freemasonry, but like they're a lot less auspicious about it, I guess is my point.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:18

They're not flashy.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:19

Right. Like they're not they're not promoting it. It's just sort of something that they do, and it's a part of society. And if you're a part of it, you have the inside scoop. But if you don't, it's not readily available.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:30

They're behind the scenes, you know, they're I don't know. It it's like they were very in your face before, and then they kind of learned their lesson that it was like, hey, we can't be we can't be that loud. You can't be nonchalant about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:42

You have to be like it has to be regimented, I guess is the right way to put it. So that sort of begs the question that like not like the knowledge is passed down, but it's not about dominating at that point. It's about the knowledge more so than the control. So that's sort of where you sit with the influence more than the control nowadays versus control being back then. That's fair.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:02

But they I mean, okay. Do they have control though over politicians and world leaders now?

SPEAKER_02 1:18:08

Right. But that's but we saw like we also touched on it as like we've all we've all heard the saying that history repeats itself if you don't change anything, right? So, like, for example, there was political corruption. We saw it with the Philip, the King Philip IV. Right. Like, it's sort of in their it's sort of in their DNA. At least that's what they were accused of. Right. So do you like is it more do you think they took the easy way out and just sort of adopted the moniker?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:36

No, I think they actually got probably some ancient teachings that were passed down. You gotta think, like, like, okay, they didn't have kids, right? Allegedly. Because like I I heard rumors that like they castrated themselves. That supposedly is not true. They did not castrate themselves. There might have been like certain like later on, maybe they did, or certain little groups that did, but they did not supposedly castrate themselves. They just took an oath to you know celibacy and all that. Well, there's nuns and priests that take those same oaths. Right. I completely agree. And uh so I would guess that between them probably having some type of offspring, a few of them, and then also probably had nephews and cousins and family members still, that they probably pass some knowledge down, not to all of them, but a select few, and then you know it sort of spidered out of that, so it sort of became the telephone where like like we were talking about before, it started as one thing and it's sort of a reflection of that, but it's not holistic. Yeah, and like think about it too, like these guys are really smart, right? Right. Like really smart.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:48

Well, so you gotta say, they conquered and did a lot of shit, so I would have to believe they have some sort of a brain.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:54

So you gotta think those guys that did get away, the few that got away that went to North America, South America, probably, you know, maybe South Africa, Asia, they probably started their own little groups and then passed that knowledge down before they died.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:09

Yeah, right. That makes a lot of sense. To wrap up, what do you think about like do you think the purging of the Templars sort of sparked what's happening with the different sects and stuff now? Like, do you think it was a direct direct correlation between what they did and they sort of went into hiding because it was necessity at that point? Like, do I think they had to go into hiding? Yeah, do you think that it was the only alternative? Yeah, back then. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:34

Yeah, they yeah, yeah, absolutely, because they they were fucking condemned by at first the you know Philip the Fourth, but then then they were condemned by the fucking Pope, essentially God's fucking human.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:48

Yeah, see like the the the entire establishment that put him in place in the first place torn down. So you're talking about going from the inside out. What more inside do you need than yeah? So I mean that's your whole doctrine, that's your whole credo coming from that, and then essentially flipping the script and getting rid of you is pretty crazy because they were getting too powerful. I think there was definitely I think there were definite inclinations that they were gonna overthrow the church and the Vatican and the Pope. I think that was a big, big, big piece. Definitely could have, yeah. But yeah, I I like I said, it's all speculation until you're actually folded into that fold. I still think they're around in some form or fashion. I I would have to believe that something that big, that influential didn't just go away. There's no way they got everybody. There's no fucking shot. Like I I'd have to believe that even if it was one person, somebody somebody got away because, like you said, there's stuff turning up in places they had no business being at the time.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:47

Yeah, like how do you explain like Templar currency and like some of the rings and like some of the stuff they found in on that island, Nova Scotia? Yeah. And then also down in South America, where technically it wasn't even discovered until fucking a couple hundred years later or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:05

Yeah, because like you said, I mean, they were a pretty big brush fire for about 200 years, and then apparently, according to powers that be just wiped off the face of the earth, there's no way that they got everybody. I just I I refuse to believe that. Uh it just it wouldn't make sense. With how inf like I said, without how influential they were and how big they were, and the allure of the whole idea of being a Templar, it just it wouldn't make sense that they would just go fade into obscurity. That wouldn't make sense to me. But I think, like I said, I think they're still around, but like you said, I think they're sort of splintered. It's more of a faction now than a holistic group of people. Like they probably have, like I said, they su they probably had the same, at least somewhat of the same core tenets, but they've also probably had to evolutionize with the way things are now. So you talk about the whole social media aspect, and then you talk about computers and technology and all that stuff. I'd have to believe that they've spidered into that realm as well. There's no way they haven't to be able to exist at least in this time period. Yeah. I mean Because we're talking about influence. I mean, what's more influential than getting online? You know what I mean? Like maybe they're maybe they're behind anonymous. Could be, could be. It's actually a wild take. But I like I like I told you with the Anonymous thing, is that he like I said, he's very like gray hat. Like he just there's a black hat and a white hat. You know, obviously white hat would be like your people that are trying to stop stuff from happening, and then you have your black hats that are just trying to stir shit up and get shit crazy, and then he's sort of in the middle just feeding you information. It's a it's an interesting take. If anybody's never watched anything from Anonymous, check it out for what it is. Don't necessarily take it at face, take it at face value, don't read too much into it unless you want to, but some pretty interesting shit that he comes up with and let you know about.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:50

What if what if he was part of like the one of these secret societies, got super deep into it and was like, fuck, I gotta let everybody know.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:57

Well, that's what I'm saying is that you have like whistleblowers, right? He's essentially a whistleblower. And he I I haven't read too much on cause because this is the other thing, is that people don't know if he's female, male, binary, whatever. They don't know. There's there they there's there there's no definitive information of like even his gender or or his sex or anything like that. He's just a figure, he's a symbol. And I use he. But uh, but you think about that, you think of the we've touched on Edward Snowden a couple times. Like he had to take exile, I believe we found out, I think we looked it up and he's in Russia now. He's in exile in Russia. Um, but you have all these people that their lives are literally destroyed for literally telling the quote unquote truth. Whether you believe it's the truth or not, doesn't matter. It's stuff that stirs shit up. And maybe that's what the whole idea of the factions and the splinters of the original Templars are, is that they're just trying to keep the flame alive. It's not necessarily for any financial gain or any gain whatsoever, necessarily. I don't know. I'm speculating, of course. But they're out for something. Whether it's influence or anything else, I think it's I think you'd have to be dumbfounded to you would be dumbfounded to find out that they're not around anymore in any form or fashion. I think that would just be ludicrous.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:06

I agree. They survive they survived, let's put it that way. Somehow, yeah. They survived. Yeah, they survived.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:12

Not necessarily thriving to whatever metric you want to put that to, but they're they're definitely still around. I fullheartedly believe that. But as we close up, do you have any sort of final thoughts about Templars? Like, did you anything any any anything that you thought was interesting or sort of caught your eye while we were looking up information?

SPEAKER_00 1:25:32

Um, honestly, I thought it was just like interesting how they started and what they evolved into. Also, what's really interesting is just how you think, like, they're only around for 200 years. It's like we've this country's only been around for what, this is gonna be 250? Yeah, something like that. Like in the grand scheme of things, like they were short. Very, very, very small blurb, yeah. Grew an immense amount of wealth and power.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:56

And it wasn't just that they grew, it was exponential growth. Like it didn't, it wasn't just sort of like a steady stream, like like you said, they went from zero to a hundred real quick. But as far as the episode was concerned, I think the the I think the coolest thing that I found out was just the scale of how they were brought up as a as a force and and that kind of thing to how much they were torn down and what they were torn down by, which is essentially the very thing that put them in motion in the first place. I thought that was interesting. Here's an interesting fact.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:26

At their peak on the late 1200s, they had between 15,000 to 20,000 members of Templars.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:34

I'd wonder where the hierarchy would have been. I wonder between like if there were different, like um, I guess ranks you could put it.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:42

So only ten percent of that were full armored sword carrying knights. So that's roughly fifteen hundred to two thousand true knights. Um, these were noble-born, heavily armored cavalry, highly trained, extremely expensive to equip. Um, the rest of the order, which was the real power, the remaining eighty to ninety percent, were essential support roles. So sergeants, which was the majority, professional soldiers, infantry and light cavalry, guards, trainers, enforcers, could fight but not knighted, and then brothers and specialists, so builders, engineers, accountants, ship crews, administrators, farmers, blacksmiths, then you had chaplains, priests within the order answered only to the Templars, not local bishops. Their geographic spread at their height was France, was their largest base, but then England, Scotland, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Holy Land, and Cyprus.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:47

They were essentially a network, they were everywhere. Everywhere, man. That's crazy. Everywhere. But yeah, I'd like to re like like I said, I don't think it's gone. I think it's just sort of been altered. That's sort of where I sit with it.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:59

Yeah, because you gotta think like they had fucking farmers and blacksmiths.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:03

Well, you're you're spider you're spider you're spider webbing every piece of society, essentially. Yeah. Like they had a they had a they had a s they had a a sentinel in basically every f form of life and lifestyle that you could possibly imagine at that time. So people definitely got away, dude. Yeah, a hundred percent. Or or like you said, they passed down the knowledge, one of the two. It was in their it was in their will or or whatever. So but another good episode, dude. I enjoyed this one. This was sort of a rabbit hole one, too. Yeah, it was cool. But it was cool. I know that uh we have we're gonna talk about some other ones. We might sort of go on. I don't, I don't we've done a lot of conspiracy theories for you guys, or not necessarily conspiracy theories, but this essentially is one, but secret societies and stuff like that. We'll try to sort of next episode think of something a little bit more out of the box because we've done a bunch of them. We've done one on just secret societies, we've done one on the Templars, obviously, and I think we've done a couple other ones. But we'll sort of try to take a another turn. We'll think of something a little bit more out of pocket for you guys as far as the format's concerned. Because we don't want to sort of do the same episodes over and over, even if they're different secret societies or conspiracy theories. So we'll try to think of something a little bit more off-the-beaten path, so to speak. But as I said at the beginning of the episode, make sure you guys follow us on all the socials. Like I said, we have an X account as well as an Instagram account. It's just at Obscuracast. Uh, that's the handle for both of those. And you got any closing thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 1:29:23

This was fun. Like and share. Uh you know, if any of you have something on your mind that you think we should do an episode on, you know, throw it in the comments and we'll check it out.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:34

Yeah, and uh also, like I said, we're on Spotify as well as Apple Music, so you can listen to either one there. Um, they'll be uploaded as soon as I can get it get it on the platform, so you guys will have it probably by um we're doing this on the 15th. We'll probably have it in the morning of the 16th, if not earlier. Um, but I appreciate y'all you guys. Like I said, you guys are killing it with listens and stuff. We've literally done zero marketing except for those socials, and we've been sort of backtracking those socials, like I told him before. I told Dan before we got onto the podcast that we were going to uh get back on that for you guys. I know with the holidays and all that stuff, I know it's an excuse, but at the same time, we also have lives too. So we have to sort of keep that in check too. But appreciate all you guys. Make sure to follow on the uh socials for X and Instagram and make sure you listen to us on Spotify as well as Apple Music. Make sure to like and share. And it was a pleasure, dude. Yep, you too. All right, see you guys. Bye.