The Stanford Prison Experiment – The Documentary That Changed the Story

After watching the National Geographic documentary Unlocking the Truth, we break down how one of psychology’s most famous studies spiraled out of control—and whether the story we’ve been told for decades holds up. From power, authority, and performance to ethics and myth-making, this episode digs into the unsettling reality behind the experiment that changed how we think about human behavior.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:55

All right, everybody, welcome back. Hard to believe we're almost at 20 episodes. We've been doing this since probably the beginning of last year, and it's hard to believe we're already at 16 episodes. Dano, how are you doing this evening?

SPEAKER_01 1:06

Doing good. This uh snowmagedon, cold, whatever the hell we're going through is uh I'm just bunkered inside right now. It's not great.

SPEAKER_02 1:15

I think you and I are both doing the same thing right now. We're essentially have stayed inside all day, and the crazy storm that's hitting the northeast is just absolutely, absolutely ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Yeah, I got a notification. Today is Sunday, by the way, when we're recording this. I got a notification at noon that my daughter would not have school tomorrow.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

Well, you live in Pennsylvania, it's a little bit different than somewhere like northeast Ohio where where we're from. So I could I completely understand that. It still sort of baffles me, though, that it's it's such a close state to Ohio and especially northeast Ohio that it's you you guys literally treat snow like Texas and fucking California. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

Yeah, it's not. I don't know. Moving from obviously being up by you to moving to here, they like freak out over a little bit of snow, and I'm like, this is a joke.

SPEAKER_02 2:00

But well, like I said, like I said, I mean, it's it's crazy to think that in September of last year was our first episode. I'm looking back right now, September. Well, actually, it's not even September, it's actually before that. Let me look. It was August August. It's August 4th of last year, so that's pretty crazy. We started almost, I mean, we're obviously seven months away from being a year, but that's still pretty crazy. It actually is closer than that. But, anyways, we have a really cool topic tonight that I sort of chose and wanted to dive into. It's something that I had a intro to psychology class in college when I was still a young lad. And it was a really interesting experiment. Tonight we're talking about we're gonna start, we're gonna start going into a little bit and sort of round it out as the episode goes on, the Stanford Prison Experiment. So if anybody is not familiar with what that is, essentially what it was was a it was a psychology experiment by the University of Stanford. And we'll get into all like the who's who of who was involved, who was sort of running it, that kind of thing. But we also watched a really, really interesting documentary on it uh that I thought was interesting. And Dan watched the exact same documentary that I did, and it was a cool flip on sort of like how the experiment went versus the public perception of the experiment. So it was a really interesting watch. Dan, I don't know how you felt about it. Sort of gave me your two cents just real quick on what you thought of the documentary and sort of where where you stand on the whole experiment, whether it was it was it was stuff was left out, or they sort of gave the whole picture. Where do you sort of stand on that?

SPEAKER_01 3:28

So I also I took an intro to I had to take a couple psychology classes with my major. Believe it or not, sports management major had to take like a couple different uh sports management is all about psychology.

SPEAKER_02 3:42

Sports psychology is pivotal with athletes. I mean, I'm a I'm a perfect testament to I don't mean to cut you off. I'm a perfect testament to that. When I went from because I sort of had like a tribulate tribulation of college experiences as as far as like what my athletic journey was through college, it was very like uh there was a lot of trials, a lot of tribulation associated to it, as you well know. Yep. But sports psychology, when I got to the pros, because I played actually three years overseas professionally basketball as well, sports psychology was pivotal for me. Yeah, it was huge. Because if you understand how your mind works, you're able to sort of put that forth into the universe with whatever you're doing, whether it's sports, work, family life, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

So yeah, so I I actually when I I mean when I was choosing my major and stuff and looking at like the curriculum of what I had to do, it was like not only did I have to take an intro to psychology, I had to take sports psych, and I had to take another psych class, and I was like, oh, okay. So anyway, uh to your point, when when you had said that you had to take this in your intro to psychology class, we talked this was something we talked about as well, and then um we actually talked about it again in my sports psychology class, believe it or not. My road of athletics is kind of even crazier than yours, because I didn't play in college, but then I ended up coaching in college and playing lower level professionals. I took about the most bass awkwards way to that aspect of my life as anyone could. But to your point, the psychology aspect of it, the sports psychology, and like, you know, understanding that exactly what you said helps tremendously because especially as you know, when you get to those higher levels of competition, it's a lot more than just going out there and coaching or or playing the game. Like you're dealing with sponsors, boosters, you're dealing with money coming into the school, you're dealing with conference prestige, you're dealing with agents when you get to the professional level, you're also dealing with agents at the college level, especially now. So there's a lot going on. Oh, by the way, you're a full-time student athlete, you know, at the higher levels, so it can be a lot. And I think now, more than ever, we're at a a time period where it's finally acceptable to, you know, talk to a psychiatrist and talk about your feelings. Whereas before, you know, guys had to bottle that shit up. Guys and girls had about bottle that shit up. Nick Saban, he was he literally, I think it was once a week, the last I think five years to ten years of his career at Alabama, he talked to a sports psychologist every single week. So it kind of shows how he evolved.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

Yeah, I mean, it ties into pretty much everything we do in life. It doesn't necessarily have to be sports. It's sort of like a strong body is a strong mind, like they always say. So, like, for example, like if you have a strong mind, there's some stuff that's gonna get to you. It's just human nature, it's just the way it is. There's buttons that need to be pressed and buttons that are pressed that sort of send you off the deep end. But if you're able to have a strong mind and sort of know what you're getting yourself into, the reason I say this because it sort of ties into the episode, is that like essentially if you know what you're getting into, you can sort of prepare for it more and not let as much stuff affect you. The really crazy thing about the Stanford Prison Experiment is that there was sort of, I feel like, a generalization made about the experiment. They didn't really understand the lengths that some people are willing to go to. And that's where it gets crazy, right? Is that's where it starts the episode starts to get really insane, is that they take the initiative of what they were able to do in the roles they were given, and sort of, you know, they sort of throw it out, throw it out into left field.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

Yeah, after watching this documentary, and by the way, everyone, this was the uh National Geographic Channel did a documentary, and this was the first documentary where they got the correct me if I'm wrong, Blake, but this was the first one where they actually got the participants side of it.

SPEAKER_02 7:33

Well, it was the participants, plus they had the original footage. So if anybody doesn't know, all of the all of the interactions between the individuals that so essentially what it was, I'll just sort of set the tone because it makes sense to set the tone that way you'll understand where we're coming from with the authoritative aspect and all that kind of shit. So essentially the the layout of the experiment was there was a makeshift prison. So essentially they had cells that were divided by room, and there were some individuals that played guards or like authoritarian roles within the prison, and then there were the prisoners that played sort of the submissive role. So when we're talking about like the psychot, like like the psychology of the experiment itself, you have one side sort of authoritarian and you have the other one submissive. So that's really important to make that distinction of which role is which, because it makes it sort of sets the tone for the experiment and what sort of happened as it unfolded. So I why do you think, Dan, why do you think that the Stanford Prison Experiment, because I knew a little bit more about it than you did, and we you had to do a little bit more research than I did, it seemed like, which is fine. Why do you think it's still relevant to revisit this experiment in the realm of psychology? Why do you think it's important?

SPEAKER_01 8:44

Because I think that when you're talking about prison, it's a completely different world than what is what we're all accustomed to. And I think that now to to let everybody know that, you know, doesn't know me. I if anyone here has seen the movie Gridiron Gang with the Rock and uh I think it was Exhibit, right? They were football it was based on a true story, football coaches at a uh youth juvenile prison penitentiary, whatever you want to call it, for troubled youth. Basically kids that were in jail. And I did that same thing at a not gonna give a name because I can't. There's a lot of stuff that I can't talk about right now because of NDSA that I signed. But there's a place in Pennsylvania that is a placement school I coach football at, and I was also a counselor at slash warden, whatever you want to call it. Um having been in the prison system and worked it, I have a very different view probably than like what your view is in a lot of people. But I think what's really interesting is having studied this in college a little bit, and then honestly, I forgot about most of it, so I had to I had to go back and do some research and then documentary is very good. I I think it's important because when you go into a system like that, it's kind of like militaristic where they're gonna break you down, they're gonna completely strip you of who you are, and they're gonna turn you into somebody else. Anyone that thinks that prison is easy, you're an asshole. Because it's not.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

Well, it's it's also a hype, like you said, it's it's I think it's a hyper vacuumized. I don't even know if hyper vacuumized, I don't even know if that's a world word. Um, but it's like a like a hyper realistic version of reality. Like it's a very, very like there's stuff that you do and stuff that you don't do in real life and like you know, normal everyday life, it's a little bit more malleable, a little bit more flexible, a little more bendable. With that kind of stuff, from everything I've seen, whether it's dramatized or not, is very regimented. Like you said, it's like militaristic. Like you eat at a certain time, you have so much time to do like yard time and that kind of thing. Like it's it's very it's very regimented.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

Here's the thing you this is what people gotta realize, okay? When you're in prison, I don't care if you're a juvenile or if you're an adult, you have very little rights. At least at when you're a juvenile and you're in the prison system, placement, placement system, juvenile system, whatever, at least they still call you by your name. You don't have a number, okay? When you are 18 years old and you turn into an adult and you're in the prison system, dude, you're giving a number. That's it. You're giving a fucking number. You're not that way, prison guards and wardens and all that shit. When you have a n uh when I call a kid for his phone call down the hall and I yell for his name, that's a human aspect. Psychologically, that's a human aspect.

SPEAKER_02 11:44

And it's even subconscious, if you want to make that argument, that it's not necessarily something that they they're aware of it, but not in their frontal, like in the front part of their brain. It's more of like a subconscious thing.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

Right. And and with the with the kids, you're trying to rehabilitate. They're at a very young age. Kids are very impressionable, especially at that age. We had kids, I think as young as 13, 14, all the way up to 18 years old. Okay. Very, very impressionable at that age. Hopefully you can get them to get their shit together, which more often than not doesn't happen, unfortunately. I worked at one of the better institutes where we did have more success stories, but like, dude, I'll still get a call or a text from somebody that works there that like you know, so and so passed away last week because gunshot or whatever. Like I I and you know, it sucks. It sucks. But when you're talking about prison, when you're talking about adults, dude, they're giving a number. Like they take the human aspect out of it, and like, you know, watching the video, which we're we're gonna get into here in a in a few minutes, like when they do roll call when they wake them up and they're lining them up, like that's the same shit we did. You line them up, they gotta count. We would like every third so so whoever was the voice of the day, you got a sheet. Like, you got the sheet, you got the roster of who you have, okay? And what it is is basically roll call. And we would have to do a roll call, we would have to count to make sure we had nobody missing. Every 30 minutes we had to do a roll call, and you gotta count and make sure that you're not out of out of count. So you gotta make sure that all right, we got 17 kids today. First thing in the fucking morning, you get them out of bed, they line up in the fucking hall, send me a count. One, two, three, four, five. If they fuck up the count, hey, fuck stick, restart. One, two, three, and you keep going. And some kids like, dude, the jokester, like, we're gonna get into it, and there's a point, there's a point in the documentary that I was like, oh my god, it's just like, it's just like like when I was working with the fucking kids, they do the same fucking shit. It's just huge like and and we had to do certifications every month, couple times a month, of these different certifications and classes you gotta take. And I was on for the majority of my time there, I was on the the um, I was on the floor that was the CYS floor, which was the kids that were there were high sex traffic kids. There were kids that were homeless that were in the CYS system, and uh it was, you know, there's gen pop and then there's that. So uh I I was there and then they moved me up to Gen Pop after that because they were getting me ready to be a supervisor, but obviously, uh I'm not there anymore because not because I didn't want to be there, it's just I was I'm go I was going through at the time a custody thing and I couldn't work that job and have custody of my daughters. Um couldn't work there anymore, but I love those kids. Anyway, you know, it's like the seeing the roll call and seeing like you know, all that stuff brought back memories because it's very like you said, militaristic. You're told when to wake up, you're told when to eat, you're told when to shit, when to piss. Like we tell you when bathrooms are. It's not like uh, oh, I gotta go to the bathroom, yeah. Like during the school day, they can kind of do that, but you know, you got guys that are literally posted up in the hallways during school. I had to fill in and do that sometimes. Like, there's posts, you gotta ask permission from the teacher, then you gotta ask permission from the whoever the the hallway monitor is, and like there can only be two kids in a bathroom at a time because most of the time what happens is is kids are gonna fucking shank another kid in the bathroom. Fights happen, and honestly, there's two to three areas that fights happen, and when kids get fucked up, they're gonna get fucked up in the cafeteria. That's where most of the fights that I saw happen was in the calf. Okay, then the other one is the bathrooms, bathroom because it's secluded, and you know what I mean. So you got cafeteria, bathroom, and then their rooms, but because on the first floor that I was on, there were no doors, couldn't have a door on. Now in Gen Pop, they had doors, which from a safety standpoint, I didn't like the doors because they could get away with more sneaky shit. And it also, if you had two kids that wanted to jump another kid, they could easily, you know, if somebody causes a distraction down the hall, you got X amount of of security going we're going to where the shit is happening. But we gotta have the mindset that also like the guy at the very end of the hall, he's gotta stay at post because he's gotta watch the rest of the floor to make sure that they're not causing a distraction down that way. So s so one or two other kids can go sneak into another kid's room. So it becomes very tactical. So, you know, you could have two kids go into a kid's room, one kid watches a door while another kid beats the fuck out of them. Because like I seen fights happen over a piece of candy, over a fucking pen and a pencil, over the dumbest shit you could possibly imagine. And that's just kids.

SPEAKER_02 16:51

It's about giving it then to not giving it.

SPEAKER_01 16:53

It's you know, and I think they had what three people to a room in this one. There were three rooms, they had what three? It was something like that.

SPEAKER_02 17:00

But yeah, I mean, it was it was I can't remember the exact number. I think it was around 20 or so for guards and inmates or guards and prisoners. I think it was right around there. It might have been 18, I'm not sure. But anyway, like I said, with all of that context, we're gonna start to set the scene. So we have the Stanford Prison Experiment. Oh, you're gonna it's it's not a the context, I think, will help because if you're giving your point of view, they sort of know that you've been a part of it. That makes more sense. Yeah, I've been in the system, so it's yeah. But as we're setting the Stanford Prison Experiment, essentially, as essentially it was a prison or a makeshift prison built in the psychology basement, the psychology department basement of Stanford University. Then the and then we're gonna obviously introduce Philip Zabardo. He'll become a very prominent figure. He was sort of the proprietor of the experiment. He was the, I believe, the head of psychology at Stanford at the time, or one of the heads of psychology at Stanford at the time. So as we set the scene, it was very intricate how they did this experiment. It was very like real, real world-ish, I guess if you want to put that kind of spin on it. So they essentially had real police arrest the participants' home. So they went to the participants, the guards or the police went to the establishments or domiciles of the people that were playing the prisoners, and they were literally arrested on the spot, taken in cop cars, blindfolded, all that kind of stuff to create the illusion that they were actual prisoners going to a you know, a penile facility, essentially.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

Trying to get them in the mindset of the right.

SPEAKER_02 18:28

It was to set up the it was set up to it was to set up the scope that they were really a prisoner and all this was real and all that kind of stuff. So that sort of set the scene as far as the arrest and roll assignment. And then you also have the prisoners restripted identity, just like Danny was talking about. They were given a number, uniforms, they were de loused. You know, all of the standard practices within reason that they could have done to make it realistic, they did within the experiment. On the flip side, we also had guards that were given uniforms, they were given batons, they were also given sunglasses. Um, I think a couple of them even had nicknames that, like, when we watched the documentary, there was like a couple people that had nicknames according to like what they looked like or the way they were acting from a prison guard standpoint as well as a prisoner standpoint.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

So Which is also very real. They give you fucking nicknames and that shit. Right.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

But I think the interesting thing was the key sort of revelations that we had watching the documentary. I mean, it it it like the guards, they were always trying to sort of top what they were doing to the prisoners each day. So they wanted to sort of hold that authoritarian rule over the prisoners, not just from we have domain over you, but we're upping the ante every single day. And I thought that was interesting from a psychology standpoint. Like I said, all this stuff is sort of setting the stage, and we're gonna get into why this matters. But I think the biggest question that I'll pose to you, and I'll sort of give my view as well, is if you're told how you're you're supposed to act, is that sort of getting rid of the organic or the in the moment type scenario role defining? Like, how do you feel about that? Do you think if they're if the guards were told to be more passive, do you think they would be more passive, or do you think they would still have the authoritarian aspect? I mean, I do you think they got like a false do you think they got like a false confidence based on what they were supposed to do in the scenario? That's my question.

SPEAKER_01 20:15

Who was the main guard that was like the the dickhead? They they said it, they nicknamed him John Wayne.

SPEAKER_02 20:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So So he was sort of like the if you want to say warden, if Zombardo wasn't the warden, he was essentially the guard, he was the head guard, let's put it the head.

SPEAKER_01 20:32

I would say that he went into it the mentality, he said it in the documentary. He went into it with like, okay, I'm gonna set the fucking tone, right?

SPEAKER_02 20:41

Do you think but that's the question, right? Is this is that innate? Is that just the type of person he is, or was he given that false confidence by what he was told to do? Do you think it would have been the same had they been told, hey, just wing it, do whatever you want to do?

SPEAKER_01 20:54

His background that he told in the documentary was he was in a fraternity, he'd been hazed, he'd gone through that whole thing. So I think that's more of kind of his personality. Now, do I think that also it might have been manipulated that they might have been told, like, hey, you know, really sell this thing? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

Because obviously somebody had to take the lead, right? Why was he the lead? Do you think that was done by the confidence boosting, or do you think you're more of the idea that was his personality? Am I getting that right?

SPEAKER_01 21:24

I think that's his personality watching that documentary. I think that's more his personality, honestly. He seemed very confident when he was talking about it. He didn't seem very reserved, he didn't feel like he had any remorse. He kind of had this like, yeah, like that's how I went into it with this thing and like I loved it. I you know, blah blah blah. Like teachy's fucking guys, you know, they're gonna follow the fucking orders and blah blah blah. He was very matter of fact like. Whereas if somebody was told to do it and they didn't agree with it, I don't think he would have been as cocky about it. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 22:01

Yeah, to a certain degree. I mean, I think it could be a little bit of a I think it could be a a little bit of both. Could be. Um it could. It could I think the false confidence definitely gave him the button push element. Do I think he would have been as brash without it? I don't know. That's that's up for speculation.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

You know, uh honestly, I I think now that you mention it, here's what probably happened. I think, and correct me if you think I'm out of the line here, but it I think Philip Zimbardo probably met with them pre-whatever, told them this is how, you know, whatever, act like a prison guard. Here's how prison guards act, gave them some type of material, and then that guy probably thought, I'm gonna be the fucking head guy.

SPEAKER_02 22:45

Or you're gonna up the ante, like this is what they want me to do, I'm gonna extrapolate it so it's even worse. Yeah. And that I mean, that's an interesting that's an interesting notion just because of the fact of like he uh we're we're mentioning Zombardo just because he was very pivotal in the way the experiment went. He was he was the one that was running it, he was sort of like the overseer. Yeah, and sort of and and I I think we should focus on him also because he was playing sort of tool rule, two roles. He was essentially trying to be the researcher grabbing information, but at the same time, he was sort of the superintendent and sort of made like the rules and regulations, and like I think there was even some context as far as the the prisoners or not the prisoners, excuse me, the uh the guards were concerned where he would like meet with them because the guards were able to go home, they were able to go home, eat, socialize, all that kind of stuff, and then you have the prisoners that are locked where they're at for our that's I think they said it was what, six or seven days, it was supposed to be fourteen and they called it short.

SPEAKER_01 23:48

Now, here's the thing that's obviously very real, okay? Like I had kids that I had a council that were on my they were my councilees, you know, and there is a couple of them names that you know of, I'm not gonna say I'm on here, but we've talked off air about this shit. Kids that you know of that I've talked to you about, and you know, I'd be in the middle of counseling them, and uh their their big thing was, yeah, well at least you get to leave this place. You know, and it's like what do you say? Like, what do you say to that? Because it's like Yeah, I do get to leave. Meanwhile, they're gonna fall asleep, they're gonna get a fucking roll call at two, and then they're gonna get a roll call at four, and then boom, their day fucking starts at what, six a.m. six, seven a.m. Like, yeah, you're like you know, that does play a psychological factor. Now we didn't do that with the kids. Uh the waking up at four and six a.m. was this experiment, and and I don't know the whole prison system how that works, but um yeah, like I would literally have kids tell me, like, at least you get to fucking leave here for a little bit. You know, and it's like really my answer to that was I get that, and this isn't permanent, this is temporary. That's what I always tell them. This is temporary. As much as this it seems like it's permanent and you're never gonna fucking get out, like, dude, you're gonna fucking get out of here at one point, and your fucking goal for the rest of your life is to make sure you never end up in the system again. That's what I always fucking tell 'em. And like, you know, I think with this experiment and how the guards acted towards these prisoners compared to how we act at my time there acted, was there were some similarities where there was a lot of I was genuinely trying to help these kids get out of the system. Yeah, this was more of like antagonization. These guys were these guys were just just being cocks to be cocks, which I will say, on the contrary, in prison, probably more that because kids are gonna people are gonna have empathy for kids. They're not gonna have as much empathy for adults who fuck up because you're an adult, you should know better than what you're doing. Kids are given a pass because they're not adults yet. When you're a kid, you're supposed to fuck up and you're supposed to learn from your fuck-ups. Some do, some don't. You're an adult, bro. Get your fucking shit together. That's how society looks at people.

SPEAKER_02 26:12

I would say there's leniency. I wouldn't go as far as getting a pass. Getting a pass is essentially for I and I don't disagree with you. I'm just saying Are you saying for the kids or for the adults? Or both? Getting a pass for the kid getting a pass for the kids is kind of they're not getting a pass because they're technically in jail.

SPEAKER_01 26:29

So well, here's the thing.

SPEAKER_02 26:31

The leniency, the leniency might come with, hey, you know, I don't think the leniency would come with like capital murder. I think if you like stole something or like something like that, then I understand the leniency. But if you're like a 17, 16, 17 or on the brink of an 18-year-old and you're committing capital murder, that's a little different. Because there are plenty of there are plenty of kids on that, on that wavelength as far as age is concerned, that are tried as adults, and you know that, and so do I for a fact.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

So we never took those kids, we never took off the mic.

SPEAKER_02 27:01

But you understand what I'm talking about is that like if you have an extra if you have an extreme enough case, yes, you should be treated as an adult, especially if you're on the brink of becoming one legally.

SPEAKER_01 27:11

I I I agree with that. We took kids who grand theft, you know, they stole a car, they broke into a house.

SPEAKER_02 27:20

And the violence aspect always comes with it too, right? They might have to be able to get away from the if they just jumped a car and didn't threaten anybody, that's a little different than holding somebody at gunpoint and taking their car.

SPEAKER_01 27:32

Yeah. It's a little different. They like to steal cars.

SPEAKER_02 27:39

Yeah, but if you're not endangering anybody, that's a little different than if you're, like I said, holding somebody at gun, knife point, whatever. Correct. And taking their property. It's a little different.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

We did have those kids. We we had those kids too. You know, the murder kids, we don't we would not take kids with murder charges. But again, I think with now also you gotta understand, we had also kids there, and this is what's really interesting that that we'll get into later that I want to talk about, but we had kids there that were they were CYS, they just had shitty house home life, and they were in the system because the people that were supposed to be their guardians sucked. Their mom and dads were horrible, their aunts and uncles were horrible, they had no family members that could take them in, and they're just unfortunately were dealt a shitty card in life. It wasn't their fault. They were there not because they fucked up, because the adults fucked up that were in their life. That was a whole nother different aspect than what this is. So that that really those kids, man, you want to talk about hard to talk to because you know, if somebody fucks up, you can correct that, right? If you fuck up, like I can talk to you, I can counsel you, here's the steps that you need to take to make sure that you're doing the right thing so that you can get out of here and do that right, right? Okay, if you're not the one that fucked up and you're in essentially fucking kid prison because somebody else who was an adult looking after you fucked up, what do I say and do to you? Like, what do I say? Every adult that you've known has fucked you over.

SPEAKER_02 29:11

Yeah, it's a product of the environment type shit, right? So that's which is a real thing, by the way. I fervently believe that you are a product of your environment. Not that the environment is that's not the way you have to stay, but it does play a role and it does play a factor, 150%. Absolutely. Everything about everything about your outcome and the way you attack life is malleable, whether it's good or bad. You have full control over the way your life pans out. But it's not it's not to say that, like I said, that the where you come from is a contributing factor. It is, but it's not definite. It doesn't mean that it's concrete in the person that you're going to become in the future. It is malleable.

SPEAKER_01 29:52

No, no, no, but those kids in that situation, because that's all they've known and all they've seen, they think that it is. So what your job is, and I realize this after a while of working there, is that you had to completely want to talk about psychological, you had to restructure the way they think. All right, yeah. But you can't break them down like they're a prisoner, right? You can't break them down like you would somebody who fucked up because they didn't fuck up. So you gotta break them down in a totally different way. You gotta earn that trust. That can be quick or it can be a very long process. It depends on the kid. Every kid is fucking different, every person is different. It doesn't matter. When you get into the prison system, those guys, dude, some of them, you know, the ones that really never did anything wrong and they they absolutely had just like a fucked up night, those are the guys that are probably gonna fucking be be pretty quick to get their shit in line, right? They drank too much, you know, they got a DWI and and whatnot, or they got a couple DWIs, fucking ran into a car, injured someone, something like that. They they might have a quick turnaround, but there's some guys that have been in the fucking prison system since they were 14 years old.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

Well, yeah, like I said, maybe 40 years old. The the type of psychological harm that comes from that kind of stuff is 100% valid, but it also is about the rehabilitation. I think that's what like the the really cool thing if we're making a connection between real life and this experiment is how nonchalant it seemed like from the documentary and the footage that we saw about Zombardo with the experiment in general. He he sort of intervened when he wanted to. It was never on like a okay, this is getting out of hand. It was more of a selective type of intervention, which I thought was interesting. He also framed everything that was going on with the prisoners' data, at least in the criticism of the documentary, like the documentary was sort of putting against the actual experiment. Just the nonchalantness, I think, was the biggest thing about what happened and why I was able to go so far is because of how nonchalant he was with the experiment in the first place. Would you agree with that? How do you feel about that?

SPEAKER_01 32:02

Yeah, I agree with it. You know, having watched the documentary and seeing the footage of like how they interacted and like the guards and all that shit, let's be honest here. Okay, and I'm if I get crushed, I get crushed, whatever. Having watched this, these people that he got to do this essentially were a bunch of fucking hippies, right? In the documentary, the ones that were the prisoners that were interviewed kind of.

SPEAKER_02 32:28

Well, you even think it was before you go, not to cut you off, they even self-identified as like they were a part of that culture. So, like, for example, the kids that were the prisoners were already a part of the rebellious. Like they had talked about, hey, I like a good day was like sitting on the corner smoking cigarettes and just living life. They essentially all were. If you're right, 100% all a bunch of hippies. So they were all of the lifestyle that, like, you know, they're already in the rebellious mindset, no matter if they were a guard or a prisoner. So, like, that sort of plays, if you think about it from a outside perspective, it sort of makes sense that they were up for the experiment in the first place. 100%. Whether they were a prisoner or a guard, they had the chance to rebel against what they were doing. So, like, essentially it gave them a costume that they didn't have to, or costume that wasn't them in everyday life. Whether they were prisoner, whether they were guard, it was a change to their lifestyle that was gonna be how do I say this? It was gonna be very different from their everyday life. So it was intriguing to them.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

Yeah. Now, from my like me watching it, I thought that the guys that were the prisoners for the majority of it were a bunch of pussies, honestly, because they acted like I don't know what they expected prison to be like, but from what I saw in that documentary, that was the easiest goddamn prison I've ever seen in my life. And even the guy that like he was the head of the rebellion, he ended up like literally what a st what a kid would do at our place. It was like to a T, and I was like, holy shit, it doesn't matter if you're an adult or a kid. He faked a stomachache and went to medical and then tried to get out because of his quote unquote health. And that is the same shit that these fucking kids do, I'm sure guys do in prison. The first thing they'll do we had a kid you've heard this story before, off air. We had a kid that for two and a half months was purposefully shitting his pants all day long. From the time he woke up to the time he went to bed, he was shitting himself all day long and just sitting in it. So that way he had so much shit piled up in his clothes that he would jam in his dresser, drawers, and all that stuff. He c he smelled like shit constantly. Okay? None of these guys were doing that, so they weren't going to that length. But like the first thing everybody does is they try to go to medical man to try to get out of there.

SPEAKER_02 34:56

That was the other thing. There was like a I think one guy had a hunger strike that he was involved in. And the kids do that where I was at. The hunger strike the hunger strike thing was interesting. When they put the kid in the hole where he like actually had like almost like a psychotic break was really interesting. And I say interesting, not from the same, like, oh, it was funny, that kind of thing. It's interesting because when you put people in certain environments, you get to see who you're really dealing with. That's why it's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 35:22

Yeah, I just I thought they were a bunch of pussies, man. After like, I don't know. Because here's the thing like I've seen kids, kids, I'm talking 14, 15 years old. I'm not talking 17, 18 years old. I'm talking like 13, 14, 15 years old deal with a hell of a lot more shit than those guys had to deal with at what twenty to twenty-three years old, however old they were. I don't know. I just it was laughable what I saw. Now, I'm also someone who has seen that system, so that's a little bit more of a biased perspective for sure, but it is a perspective.

SPEAKER_02 36:03

It's a it's a it's a perspective that's validated, but it could be by definition, it is biased because you've you know what I mean? Like I have an unbiased opinion because I haven't experienced it. Right.

SPEAKER_01 36:14

I've seen kids, I've seen some kids come in, and it doesn't affect them that much.

SPEAKER_02 36:20

I was gonna say, because some of them probably you've had you've had both extremes, right? You've had kids that have handled it really well, and you've had kids that have not handled it well, and then you've had some people somewhere in the middle.

SPEAKER_01 36:30

Dude, I yeah, and like I've had kids where they come in and like we're their fourth or fifth placement. I've had kids come in where this is the first time they fucked up and they're like, oh fuck, like it it hits them.

SPEAKER_02 36:39

Yeah, you know, and they're like a re It's like a first time, it's like a first time prisoner and a and uh somebody that's a repeat offender. Like I've been I've done this, dude. Like this is not new to me.

SPEAKER_01 36:49

Like, dude, the kids come in just to let everybody know. Okay, like the kids come in and the kids who are committed, who are there, they're wearing navy blue, whether it's navy blue, you know, t-shirt and shorts. If it's winter, they're wearing, you know, navy blue sweatpants or or khaki pants and a and a p navy blue polo or a a sweater or whatever. The new kids that come in, the kids that aren't committed yet, so whether it's their first day, some kids it takes like three to four weeks to get them committed or not, just because of court dates and stuff like that. The new kids that come in, they're in orange. They gotta wear bright orange. So they're in bright orange t-shirt or shorts or bright orange sweater and sweatpants. So you look like a fucking prisoner. Because we gotta know as staff who's a high run risk. Well, who's a high run risk? The knee motherfuckers. Or a kid that's been there who just recently tried to run. Let's say we got a kid that that's been committed for three to four months, and that and we had this happen. Uh, we're playing a football game, so you're you're allowed to take X amount of kids to there's a student to staff ratio, and you're allowed to take a student to staff ratio out to the game, whether it's a football game, basketball game, wrestling match, volleyball, whatever is going on. We we had one where um there was a football game going on, they took a X amount of students out with staff, and there was two or three students that tried to run. Okay. Well what happens is once we catch 'em, because what's gonna happen is we're gonna catch them. We always catch them. We're gonna have a helicopter come from whatever police department, and that helicopter is gonna have fucking thermal imaging, and we're gonna see who's running the woods. Cause guess what? These places aren't these these prisons and these placement schools aren't in the middle of a city. They're in rural fucking bumfuck nowhere. So that way if somebody does escape, we're gonna catch you on a thermal imaging camera, because there isn't gonna be people out in the fucking woods running around like assholes at midnight, right? So anyway, we catch them. Once you catch them, they immediately go into wearing all orange. So they're all orange 24-7 until their next hearing. Because once they like you fuck up and you do that, you try to run, you obviously are gonna have a new hearing for a new sentencing, right? You're gonna get extended, you're gonna get a bunch of shit. So there's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_02 39:24

Some of some of that's gonna exacerbate the problem, is definitely gonna happen.

SPEAKER_01 39:28

We had a kid that tried to run that he was literally less than a week and a half of getting out of there. He was gonna get discharged. He ran. He had a week and a half left. He was there six months. He had less than a week and a half, and the motherfucker ran.

SPEAKER_02 39:44

Survival at that point, it's somebody somebody just just clicks for some people that it makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 39:48

I don't know why it does that, but you know, and of like whatever. So they gotta wear orange for you know the next month to two months. Every day. Orange. You're the only asshole wearing orange, unless you're a new kid. So that you gotta think. That's gotta play some type of psychological effect too. Where like you're the one that sticks out like a sore thumb. You're the one every day wearing all orange, looking like a pr when everybody sees all orange, what do you think of? Prisoner, right? Right. Even if it's a kid that isn't there because they fucked up, maybe they're a kid that's there because they're adult fucked up. They still have to wear orange because they're a new kid. They're a new, they're a new one. So that place I always thought about that. I always thought about that orange. I was like, damn man, that bright orange just that does something psychologically. It does something psychologically to the kids that are there, but I noticed that it does something psychologically to the staff as well. It just does. That's more of like a high alert type of thing.

SPEAKER_02 40:50

And that yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah. It's more of like a more acute alertness to those kind of those kind of prisoners and that kind of stuff.

unknown 40:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:59

As far as the the two rules that we sort of saw with this experiment, do you so we're looking at the prisoners and we're looking at the guards. So with the stuff that the guard or rather the prisoners had to deal with, do you think that was exaggerated or do you think it was minimized based on the experiment? Because they obviously things got so out of hand with the experiment, like we pressed, like we prefaced before. Things got so out of hand with this experiment and like things going wrong and like it getting taken to extremes and stuff like that, that they stopped at basically well, it would have been a full week had they gone one more day, but I think you said it was six days out of 14, right? So they stopped at about halfway through because it got to the point where like they had lost control. That begs the question. Do you think it from what we saw as well as like the research that we did on the experiment itself and what we know for certain, do you think it was exaggerated or do you think it was more minimalized because it was an experiment? Do you think it was exaggerated for shock value? Like, what do you what do you think?

SPEAKER_01 41:54

Okay, so explain that to me better because here, like, do I think that specific experiment was?

SPEAKER_02 42:01

Do you think there was stuff do you think there was stuff that was withheld from the experiment? Here's how I'll attack it. So, two sides stuff was held during the experiment that made it to made it seem less effective or less damaging to the prisoners, or do you think we got the full picture? What side do you sit on? Because there's been multiple speculation that the footage that we've seen and the footage that was allowed to be seen was just the stuff that they were willing to show. Does that make more sense? Yeah. Well, so I have to I have to I guess what is your contention? Do you think we saw everything we needed to see to get the full picture of the experiment and that is what it is, or do you think there's other stuff they wouldn't show because it was more heinous and that kind of thing?

SPEAKER_01 42:45

There's probably other stuff that they wouldn't show that was more heinous. 100% I believe that.

SPEAKER_02 42:50

Now because some of the the reason I prefaced that is because some of the some of the prisoners that we saw in the documentary actually said they had real trauma from what happened. Like it actually affected them mentally.

SPEAKER_01 43:01

Yeah. So here's the thing. From what I saw and what from you saw in that documentary, I'm gonna tell you right now, like I will say for my part, it didn't look that bad.

SPEAKER_02 43:13

It was the the the nakedness and that kind of stuff probably would have that kind of stuff would have bothered me. But if you're talking about push-ups, if you're talking about like counting or singing or stuff, like yeah, it would have been annoying. Yeah, it would have been embarrassing. I completely get that, but that's not as bad as like hu like humiliating somebody. But like, like, for example, we saw in the documentary, and like I said, we could put a link to the documentary inside the episode so you guys can see exactly what we're talking about. They had like they were like naked, like mounting each other. Like, that's weird. Like, that's a little bit too far.

SPEAKER_01 43:46

So that's definitely weird. It's fucked up, that has no place in like that's humiliating somebody.

SPEAKER_02 43:52

That's not a regimented, like, prison behavior. Like, there's not there's not a prison in a prison that's run well. And I emphasize well with big air quotes there's not a prison in the world that would resolve to that level of humiliation. It's illegal. You can't do that. I'm saying within with if somebody found out about that, it would be a huge red flag.

SPEAKER_01 44:14

It'd be a huge red flag, but it happens.

SPEAKER_02 44:16

I mean, I understand that, but what I'm saying is it's like I'm not condoning that.

SPEAKER_01 44:20

I'm not condoning that.

SPEAKER_02 44:21

I'm just saying the level of humility is out of proportion with that stuff. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:27

Yeah. No, 100%.

SPEAKER_02 44:29

Experiment. These are still human beings. They're not felons. They're not anything like that, but they're being subjected to that kind of behavior. It's a little weird.

SPEAKER_01 44:36

But here's the thing. They're also trying to replicate that lifestyle. And unfortunately, unfortunately, in that lifestyle, in that prison lifestyle.

SPEAKER_02 44:44

But that's the question is did it go too far? That's why I'm asking. Was it exaggerated or did they minimize it? Because this is just how prison is.

SPEAKER_01 44:51

They probably minimized it a little bit, but here's also the other thing that I will say. In juvenile prison where I was at, you had to be on high alert all the time of getting as like a fucking I was a counselor slash prison guard, okay, is what I was. I was a counselor slash prison guard. Like I heard stories from guys where like like back in the day, back when like you and I were in high school, okay, we graduated what 2009. Back in those days, at the place that I was at, if you were the role that I was in as a counselor slash prison guard, like you'd be walking down the line doing a roll call, and a kid would just fucking swing on you. Like we you had bloods and crips in Latin Kings. Now when I was there, we still had a little bit of gang activity. There were still gangs, but they weren't hardcore. We stopped taking Philly kids, but you still had bloods and crips there. Like I still had that shit, but it wasn't what it was even five years prior to ten years to a decade. You would get swung on. And there was a couple times where I got swung on, and somebody else who's been on this on this show before that, you know, we could have been on here, they've been swung on and had shit happen. I've had shit happen to where, you know, other counselor counselores, they got fucking choked out, and like there were brawls and there was all sorts of shit. That didn't happen. You didn't have a retaliation where the guys fucking revolted against the prison guards and like try to fuck them up, try to fight them. So I mean that that's where I go back to like these guys were kind of a bunch of pussies, especially the guy that led the fucking revolt and then left because he said he had a tummy ache. And then they brought the new guy in. This is something I talked about earlier. They brought a new guy in, which just happened every fucking time. Every time we had a new kid that came into the floor, okay, every time you got you get a new prisoner, okay, this this happens every fucking time. They try they try being, you know, Timmy Tough guy. Okay, so he comes in there and he's gonna revolt against the guards, he's gonna revolt against against us, and he's not gonna cooperate with us. He's gonna tell us to go fuck ourselves, we're gonna tell him, you know, do push-ups or do whatever. He's gonna say fuck you. He's gonna revolt on every single fucking thing we say. As a as a person who is supposed to keep the peace and keep everything going, when you got a guy like that, you got a kid like that, they're dangerous to the flow of the floor.

SPEAKER_02 47:30

Well, they changed the status quo. Everything was cool, and then somebody came and fucked it up.

SPEAKER_01 47:35

And then you got this dickhead who's gonna ru who's gonna not cooperate with you, and he's trying to stand on his dick, and you gotta be the one that's like, no, motherfucker, this is not your world. This is my world, you live in it, so shut the fuck up and do as I say, or you're gonna get fucked up. And for them to think that they could rebel against the guards, you know, rebel against the guards, and there's no repercussion, you're a fucking idiot. Sorry, you're a you're an absolute fucking moron if you think that you can rebel against the guards and that nothing's gonna happen to you. You're just you're an absolute fucking moron with no intelligence.

SPEAKER_02 48:22

Yeah, I mean, we even saw, I mean, to your point, as the experiment was sort of kicking off like the first day or two, they were like fucking with the guards, like they were trying to see how far they could get and that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 48:31

Yeah, like you're never gonna win that fight. We're gonna we are going to fuck you up if you do that. Because we have to keep you motherfuckers in line.

SPEAKER_01 48:41

Because at the end of the day, there is more of you than us.

SPEAKER_02 48:45

Right, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 48:46

Like, I think when I was there, it was it depended on the floor. So when I was on the when I was on the first floor, it was eight kids per staff, and then when I went up to Gen Pop, I think it was ten to twelve kids per staff. So you gotta think. You gotta think, Blake, if some shit pops off and the fucking inmates start rioting, which has happened there.

SPEAKER_02 49:12

We're 100% outnumbered.

SPEAKER_01 49:14

Oh, dude, I'm outnumbered fucking ten, ten or twelve to one, bro.

SPEAKER_02 49:19

Yeah, it's actually kind of crazy the amount of prisoners that are in prisons opposed to guards. It's actually kind of wild.

SPEAKER_00 49:25

Like, it was fucking wild.

SPEAKER_02 49:27

Like, there's a reason why there's locks on doors and like timers on lights and shit like that. Like, bro, there's a reason why it's so regimented because there's only so many people that are gonna be able to put out the fire once it starts engulfing literally everything. If there's a if there's a prison riot, the last person I want to be is a guard. Like And that's what we were. Like, but that's what I mean is like that's yeah, like that's like if if you have like a genuine rebellion or a genuine like group of people that are gonna outnumber you, you gotta sort of treat it with hostility because it's survival at that point.

SPEAKER_01 50:00

Dude, absolutely. Like I heard stories about like riots that happened there on the floor that I was at from ex guys from guys that work there currently, and it was like fuck, bro. Like, like it was it was insane hearing those stories, you know, and like you gotta do what you gotta do to survive because at the end of the day, like those kids were trying to kill them.

SPEAKER_02 50:22

Yeah, it's uh it's never you.

SPEAKER_01 50:24

They weren't just trying to like hurt you and and they can escape. Like they were trying to fucking kill them. And like at the end of the day, like my whole thing was I took that job to help these kids. I never took that job to hurt them. I don't want to hurt a kid. I never want to hurt a kid. Like, that's not true. I don't think a sane I don't think a sane person would. That's not why you're there.

SPEAKER_02 50:46

That's not why you're there, it's about reform. No, no, it's not what's about the complete opposite, it's about reforming them and turning them into a constructive member of society.

SPEAKER_01 50:54

Yeah, it's helping them and getting them fucking back to being a decent human being and getting them on the right track, and then like you get into a situation where where there's a fucking riot on a floor. That's the worst. That's listen, I treated those kids like I treated every group of kids I've ever coached. That's what I did.

SPEAKER_02 51:17

This is there was this was always this was always my contention with coaching, because I've never had the experience that you had with what you did at this the school you were at. But this has always been my contention with that kind of stuff and and sort of challenging, you know, because we both coached at a at a school in Cleveland that wasn't it wasn't great from a commitment standpoint, it wasn't great from a disciplinarian standpoint. But the football and the sports that we were involved with was that happy medium. It's sort of it gave them a sense of structure, it gave them a sense of discipline, and it gave them a sense of all of that good stuff that they need to go and have to be a productive member of society. That there are there are consequences to your actions. If you don't do it a certain way, you're not gonna get ahead, you're not gonna progress, you're not gonna do any of this stuff. And that's what a good reform school, no matter if it's a prison, it's a juvenile detention center, all of those places should aspire to the reform. They shouldn't aspire to the punishment. It's about making somebody that is not currently a productive member of society and turning them into that, whatever that means for them, because everybody's different.

SPEAKER_01 52:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:23

So you can't that that's where you guys have that. That's where like the penile system, I get it's regimented, I get there are a way to do things, but everybody's different. Not everybody learns the same way, not everybody has the same personality. All of that stuff needs to be taken into account, and that could you could even go into an argument about how like our prisons are overpopulated. 100% agree with that. Yep. Like if we're talking about violent offenders versus non-violent offenders, like if it like if you it like there's obviously extremes of people that belong to be locked away for the rest of their life or for for whatever reason, capital punishment, if you believe in that as a last resort, right? Most kids are not that. But that's my point. Is like most kids have run away from home, they've stolen something, but are they a violent offender? Have they hurt anybody doing it other than maybe monetarily? I mean, they that's where the leniency comes in that we were talking about earlier. That's what I'm talking about, is that like there's something to be said about somebody that just steals a car and somebody that steals a car at gunpoint. That distinction needs to be made. It's important.

SPEAKER_01 53:24

My whole thing was you know, I saw kids that went into that system that were there not because they fucked up, but because the adults fucked up, or kids that, like you said, okay, they stole a car, but they didn't hold anybody a gun point. They just made a bad decision because of the people other kids that they were influenced by. Like I saw kids that were just genuinely good kids that made a bad decision. Yeah, they got caught in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong people. Happens all the time. They go there and then they get put on the gen pop floor, and a good kid turns into an asshole because he's surrounded by other assholes. Instead of putting the kids that don't deserve to be there, the kids that, you know, aren't the fuck ups, it was the adults that fucked them over, or you know, whatever, you know, they don't put them all together. They like mix everybody. And my whole thing is like that's the worst thing you can do. The worst thing you can do is take a kid that's a genuinely good kid who who fucked up one time, put him with a bunch of assholes, he's gonna especially the younger ones, they're 13, 14, 15 years old, they're so impressionable. Impressionable that you're putting him with a group of fuckheads and you're you're gonna turn that kid into a fuckhead. I can tell you right now, I'll type the motherfucker's name in because I'm not gonna say it, but I will type this kid's name in, okay? Perfect fucking example of this, okay? Because he was a decent fucking kid, but and and he follows me. He we're friends on Facebook now. You can ask Brent about this kid. Like he should have been in he should have been on first floor, but he was on fourth. And he was up on fourth floor, which was Gen Pop, when I was up there. Kids would just pick on him because he was the youngest kid on the floor. He was 14, he was 14 years old with fucking 18, 17, 16-year-olds.

SPEAKER_02 55:14

Well, everybody's had the everybody's had the notion of fitting in. I don't think that's foreign to anybody. Like if you go with the flow, you're gonna have a lot less turbulence than if you didn't. And that's just human nature. It has nothing to do whether with you agree with it or not. It has to do with just how humans interact with other humans. We look and strive for validation. That's what we're looking for as human beings. We want to make sure we matter and we want to fit in. That's just human nature at its core.

SPEAKER_01 55:42

Yes, yes. And this kid wanted to fit in, but he was went against the grain.

SPEAKER_02 55:47

Think about how how much, whether it's good or bad, how much worse things could have gotten.

SPEAKER_01 55:51

But here's the thing: my nickname for this kid was Eric Carbon. Fuck. He was 100% Eric Carbon. He was absolute like absolutely 100% Eric Carbon. But no, I mean, like, dude, you you just you just it's that prison lifestyle, you know, I watch that documentary and I just think to myself, like, from the video that I saw, that shit wasn't shit. I don't know what those guys thought they were signing up for. But like, if they from the video that I saw, if they had trauma from that shit, and again, they didn't show like any of the sexual shit, so I don't know. For them to have like what they say is the trauma and all that, there must be a lot of shit that they didn't show that they didn't release because from what I saw, I don't know what the fuck they were expecting prison to be. Because it was no that that that's the easiest goddamn fucking prison in the history of prisonms ever, from what I saw.

SPEAKER_02 56:55

Well, let me ask you a question since you alluded to the fact that you were sort of like a quote unquote big air quotes guard and and that kind of stuff, as far as where you worked. Let's take the flip side and look at the former guards. Like some of some of them admitted in the documentaries we saw that they were performing, they were just sort of playing a role. Yeah. They believed that the cruelty and all the stuff that they were supposed to do was expected, so that's why they pushed the envelope and sort of made things more extreme day by day, tried to up every day from the day before and that kind of shit. And then they also insisted that they believed in their authority. So let me ask you a question, since, like I said, we touched upon the fact that you were in this role in a real world example, not an experiment, but something you were doing as a career or a job. How did you feel? How did you feel about your role as somebody that had to be put in that position? Do you did you feel like you were expected to be stern? Did you feel how did you feel? Sort of give me your take on that. Because that's an interesting perspective as somebody who's actually lived it in a real world example. It's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 57:53

Yeah, yeah. So my when I interviewed for the job, you know, they so to give everybody like a background that doesn't know my background, I coached with you at Euclid High School, uh in Cleveland. I also coached at Cleveland Heights High School. Very tough areas, very tough neighborhoods. Okay. Jeff Rotsky hired you and me, okay. And, you know, you coached with us one year of with the freshman. You were an assistant, you did a phenomenal job. My role was way more intricate because I had to go recruit kids. So my role was I had to go to the middle schools and the elementary schools, and I had to recruit kids to play for us instead of joining the gangs. So my job was to go get these kids in the middle schools and elementary schools before the gangs got to them. So I was already somewhat like familiar with this shit. Because it's a shit show, let me tell you. Because the gangs are are recruiting these motherfuckers in elementary school and middle school. And if anyone thinks that that's bullshit, you have no clue what the fuck you're you're talking about. When you get into these bad areas of Cleveland, Detroit, Pittsburgh, all over the fucking country, they're recruiting these kids at a very, very, very young age. So my my role was to go into these hardcore inner city schools and to go recruit these kids before the fucking gangs would get to them. And sometimes, sometimes I would have to go to a gang member's house and try to talk to whoever what the fuck was in charge to try to convince them to let this kid play for us because he had a lot of athletic talent, and there was a good chance that he was actually gonna make it out of that area. And occasionally he would have one of these fucking gang members, that usually was the kid's uncle or brother or cousin or father or whatever, say, Alright, you know, he can go ahead and play with you, but the minute he either doesn't get recruited or drafted or whatever, he's back with us. So he's basically on like a temporary loan, which puts even more pressure on you, aka me as a developmental guy. Because now you know I gotta spotlight not the kid not just the kid has a spotlight on him, but then I got a spotlight on my ass because if they'll do it for one or two kids, but if you're not producing those kids and you're not developing those kids into what you say you're going to, what do you think's gonna happen, Blake?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:27

Yeah, I mean the deal is off at that point.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:29

Well, not only is the deal off, they like they might come for me. Literally. Yeah. Okay? So you gotta make sure you're developing them. So anyway, uh I had already been a part of somewhat of the system doing that shit. So, you know, basically back back to your question, is I thought the I thought that basically from what they took these people to do, I can understand two two points of it. Okay. You're taking people that have never been in the system. Because like you remember, these these kids had never been one either. They never been.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:10

They never in prison. Yeah. So they sort of had to make it up on the fly. They were basically given free rate to do whatever the hell they wanted from either side.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:17

Yeah. So like, just to let everybody know how this system works, 90% of the time, that it does not work that way. Like, most of the time, the prisoners coming into prison are not all fresh, new people new to the prison.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:34

Well, that's what I that was making the argument with people that were repeat offenders and shit like that. Like, it works a little bit differently when you're a first timer versus somebody that's been there and done that.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:43

Yeah, like, dude, you could tell the kids that would come into our place that were like, this was their third, fourth, fifth placement, and the kids that were like fucking brand new, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:53

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:54

Like the kids that are brand new, they're dear and headlights, they're scared shitless, they're fucking crying, like it's they're freaking the fuck out, they're not eating. The kids that are like it's their third or fourth placement, they couldn't give a fuck less. It is another vacation home for them. It is they're just used to it.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:13

Right. So I guess the question with both of those scenarios, both of those roles, do you think that the trauma or like stuff that happened to these people, like, do you think it affected them outside the experiment afterwards? Like, do you think it affected them even though it was an artificial experiment and it wasn't it wasn't real life, it was just artificial? Do you think it sort of followed them after as some of the documentary like uh people stated that like it sort of affected them after them and like their daily life and shit like that? Do you think that's real or do you think it was more of a like they were put into the situation so it had to affect them? Like, do you think they let it affect them, or do you think it was just a product of what happened?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:50

I mean, dude, listen.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:52

Like I said, there's also a lot of speculation that we haven't seen all the footage that 100%.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:58

So I can only go based off what I saw.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:03

Okay. Based off what I saw.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:05

Other than the nudity aspect, it wasn't that bad. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Other than the nudity aspect, which would have been like for some people, that's really traumatizing, and I completely get that. Yeah, but I get that.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:17

But at the same time, like, dude, you're getting butt fucked in prison.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:21

But like the the like the counting and like the singing and all that kind of stuff, and some of the stuff they had to do for chores and all that kind of stuff. That's not really that's stuff we had to do when we were kids. Dude, that's not like it's just that's just like following a rule. But uh, like the only one I could see as like a little bit more murky than the other ones is like the the nudity aspect when you're playing with that kind of stuff. That's a very vulnerable position to be in. I completely understand that.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:48

But the nudity sexuality thing was definitely if that took a lot of things.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:53

I can definitely see the argument with that one, but anything else now wasn't that bad.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:57

I will say, I will say, for whatever reason, there's a lot of that shit that fucking goes on. Not necessarily nowadays, that shit never went on where I was at, but I've heard stories of other places where there's a lot of fucking weird shit that goes on with that. I think these guys that signed up for this shit, they were a bunch of hippies, they had no fucking clue what they were signing up for.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:20

I think that's the biggest argument, is they just didn't know how deep it was gonna get. And maybe no maybe nobody did. Maybe that's the point of the experiment, is that it was meant to be the extreme. Like, this is we're gonna take people and put them in put them in an uncomfortable environment and see how far we can take it to get results.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:36

This was what? This was the 70s? 71. Right? Okay. So you gotta think like Shawshank Redemption didn't come out to what ninety-two, ninety-three?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:45

Yeah, ish.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:46

Like, there weren't a lot of movies.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:49

Well, they also talked about in the documentary, too, that they were like, uh, you know, to get research for the assignment or the experiment, rather, the the people that either played guards or prisons were like all we knew about prison was like what we saw in movies in Hollywood. Yeah, yeah. So that means that comes with like the dramatization of the whole ordeal. Like, this is what I was expecting. It's really gonna be like this, but that's the reason for the reaction by both parties in the first place, is because they didn't know essentially what they were getting themselves into.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:16

Here's the thing though, of what's crazy, is this was done in the 70s. You would think they would have a little inkling of that shit though, because of the Manson murders. That shit was on video of the trial, like their whole thing with like Charles and his whole followers and all that. So, like, I don't know. They're like, you know, you had the hippie movement that we now know that the government was involved in with with Charles Manson and all that because they wanted the hippie movement to die. Which we could do a whole fucking different episode on that. But I mean, I don't know. I just I feel like they like still even though there wasn't a lot of document documentation on prisons back then, like, you gotta think. Like even before I worked where I worked at, I didn't think prison was a fucking cakewalk.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:05

No, I don't think I think anybody with a brain wouldn't think that. I mean, if you think you're just gonna walk into an establishment establishment like that, and let's say the prisoner aspect, and think you're gonna have any control over what's happening to you, you're fooling yourself.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:19

Yeah, but I think those kids thought that like it was a joke.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:22

Well, 100%. But that's what I'm saying, is there are some people that go into prison that have that mindset that this shit is gonna be a fucking cakewalk, and then they get the realization that it ain't that, brother. You're not built for this. Yeah, I I guess I like that's the repeat offender aspect.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:38

It's like if you there's a couple kids that I can agree with that, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:42

If you've gone into the scenario before, let's say you're quote unquote battle tested, big air quotes, it's not gonna affect you like somebody that's new on the block, brother. It's just not.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:52

Can I tell you something that was like it was it was my first sort of my first month there at this at this place. And there was a kid on our floor. Every every couple of weeks we would have to do bed, we would have to do room sweeps, okay? And we would have to go in and we would have to basically check their drawers under their bed and check everything for contraband and all that stuff. The big the big contraband nowadays is is vapes. So we would have to go through and see if there was any, you know, any kids that any vapes. Because they're not allowed to have vapes, they're not allowed to smoke, they're not allowed to do any of that shit. So we had to go through and see if they had any contraband, and I'll never forget um this one kid we found this fucking it's fucking crazy. So we found that the in this one kid's room under his bed he had a full functioning Glock 19 with the magazine and even bullets. It was made out of notebook paper and rubber bands. I'm gonna repeat that. He made a full functioning Glock 19 out of notebook paper and rubber bands. He could be a fucking engineer at Harvard for fuck's sake. Like full functioning. I mean, 3D model, full functioning Glock 19 made out of notebook paper with a fucking rubber band and a magazine that would function with paper bolts.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:22

Yeah, it comes back to the attesting of what you were talking about before is putting it towards something that's constructed. That's sort of what we were talking about. Dude, there's some of the most in some of the most fucking in like Well what matters is the direction, like you were talking about before, is that they have no direction or no positive force or or role model or anything like that, whatever you want to attribute it to. If they don't have that, the dire it's it's getting gonna get pulled in the only direction that they know, and sometimes it's detrimental. That's the problem. Is you could take somebody that has the exact same mindset as what you're talking about and put it towards something positive, and they would do the exact opposite of what they're doing when they go into the system.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:58

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's all about the direction and where they put the energy.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:01

That's the biggest thing is that if you have somebody that's like that and sort of unsure of where they're supposed to go, it can go one of two ways. It can go really bad and go really well. It just depends on them what the influence is.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:12

Yeah, no, I there was a couple kids that really I mean I mean, there were kids that we coached in Euclid that were great kids.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:19

Yeah, absolutely. They just had shitty home lives, or they didn't have, you know, they didn't have the ability to, you know, have like extracurricular activities other than football or something like that. You know what I mean? Like they weren't exposed to the outside world other than what they had at home, which is not which what which we can both agree wasn't always that great for the vast majority of the kids that we coached. Their home life wasn't great.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:41

It wasn't. No, no, no. That's why we wanted them at practice.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:45

That was like their refuge was to come to practice and get chewed out. Like they don't have that at home. They're allowed to do whatever the fuck they want at home. Like, as human beings, we crave structure. Like, that's how we fill out our day.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Structure is the best thing that you can have.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:59

And you can appoint structure's not necessarily following rules, it's about having a day planned out where you know what you're doing and why you're doing it. A schedule, yes. Has nothing to do with the merit or anything like that of what you're doing. It does to a certain degree, as you get into upper left, upper echelon typos of you know, trying to be a prominent figure in society, that's a little different than you have to sort of follow the social norms and all that kind of shit to a certain degree.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:24

I would say most people need a schedule and a structure, though. I think mo e like, take your most fucking Nicola Tesla who we talked about.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:34

You don't think that guy had a schedule? Well, 100% he did. It was to the point where it wasn't the Nikola Tesla schedule must have been down to a second or some shit like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:42

Dude, absolutely. But you like you don't think fucking Einstein, you don't think I mean, all right, this is going on a real big fucking left turn whim here, and I'm not saying he's a good person at all. He's probably the most evil person in the history of world them. But you don't think like Adolf Hitler had a fucking schedule? Well, yeah, I mean he was a politician, so I would have to assume he had some kind of um he had a schedule and a structure, and the SS had a schedule and a structure. You don't think fucking, you know, George Washington and those guys had a structure? Like everybody has a structure anyone who's done anything in the history of the fucking world has had a structure. Look at ancient Egypt. Well, that's been successful, I would say. Successful, yeah. They've all had a structure. Socrates had a fucking structure, right? I mean, you d like good or bad, you gotta have a structure.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:33

Yeah, I mean you gotta have something. It's a way to plan out your day and plan out not just your the not necessarily your day, but your you go forth as a becoming and going through the different, you know, maturity states so that you have to becoming an adult and past that and all that kind of stuff. It's I think it's paramount. I think if you have structure and you have a way to plan out your day and know what you're doing before you do it is a huge advantage to you as a human being, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:59

That's why I'm so for kids getting involved. And you don't have to be involved in sports. Get involved in something, get involved in drama, get involved in sports, get involved in in in the community aspect, doing like community service and stuff like that. Community service, church, something. Get involved to keep yourself away from the other bullshit. And when people fuck up is when they're bored.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:26

Or they have nothing to do. Yeah, they're bored or have nothing better to do.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:30

Which those both kind of correlate. Yeah. Those both correlate. You know, I tell kids all the time that I've coached, that I work with, uh, because I'm still involved in the community, I'm still coaching. Tell kids all the time, man, like get involved, keep yourself busy, don't get fucking complacent, because the moment you get complacent, you get bored, and you're gonna something something's gonna fucking happen. So just keep yourself busy. The best thing you can do is keep yourself fucking busy and doing stuff so that way you're not gonna fuck up, you're not you know, d it just I won't say you won't fuck up, there's less likelihood of you doing that. There's less 100%. There's less likelihood of you fucking up.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:16

Because of the because of the issue that you won't have you won't have the external forces helping you to do that, if that makes sense. Well, be free of the external forces if you're focused on something and doing something productive.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:29

Let's take a look at this, and this this is something I always used to tell the kids, okay? Success hangs around success. Rich people and successful people tend to hang around each other. Lowlifes and robbers and all that tend to hang around each other. You are what you surround yourself with.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:47

You're a product of your environment.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:48

You're a product of your environment. That goes back to what we talked about, what, an hour ago? Yeah, you're a product of your environment. So if you surround yourself with successful people, guess what? You have a higher chance of being successful. If you surround yourself with a bunch of fucking criminals and a bunch of fucking lowlifes, guess what? You're probably gonna be a fucking you're probably gonna be a fucking criminal and a fucking lowlife.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:11

Can some people blend in with both groups? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:16

Absolutely. But guess what? You have a higher success rate if you surround yourself with those successful people and fucking listen to what they preach and act like them than if you're gonna fucking surround yourself with successful people and act like a fucking criminal.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:32

Yeah. But I think the to just I think the legacy and the modern implications of this is exactly sort of what we're talking about. Because this has been used to explain stuff that's happened in prisons as far as like abuse and like that kind of stuff. It's been used to ex it's been used to sort of justify or justificate your or for justification for military behavior, how you're broken down in the military. It's also been used to justific or uh justificate police misconduct with that kind of stuff when like you're being arrested and all that kind of shit. I think what they did was I think it was sort of based on what we saw, like I said, the nudity aspect is sort of where I'd draw the line. I don't really agree with that kind of stuff. I think that was a little bit over the top. I agree with that. I think that the counting, the singing, the push-ups, that kind of stuff taking away their meals if they weren't being, you know, quote unquote uh cooperative with the guards and all that kind of stuff, all that is valid. I completely agree with that, because that's some of the stuff that we had to deal with. If you didn't want to eat what your mom made for you back in the day, you weren't eating or you made something yourself.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:38

So now in the prison system, again, this was done in the 70s, this experiment, I know. But now, at least with the juveniles, you you cannot make them we could not make them do push-ups or sit-ups or any physical activity as punishment. We also could not take away food. Sometimes would be delayed but not completely withheld. So you know you might not get a phone call at 8 30, 9 o'clock, but once everybody shut the fuck up and settled down, you know, you would get your phone call, but it wouldn't be till like ten o'clock, ten thirty. Um, so we would never withhold phone calls, but they would be delayed, which their phone calls are probably I'd say top two, top three things in their whole fucking life at that point. You know, contact with the outside world, as you can probably assume, Blake, is highly important to those kids.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:38

Well, I think I think if I mean they talk about all the time about the idea of being institutionalized. I think that's a really interesting psychological factor. And then we also also talked off air about Stockholm syndrome, which I thought is an interesting notion as well. So you have all of these different factors about like you're put into this up.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:59

I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Can you can you go into Stockholm Syndrome for the people that don't know what that is that are listening?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:06

So Stockholm the Stockholm Syndrome essentially is a sort of kidnapper, kidnap type of relationship. So essentially what Stockholm Syndrome is, from what I've read and sort of the definition that I found, just common knowledge of it, is essentially you start to adopt and relate from a emotional, physical, pretty much any standpoint you want to throw to it with your captor. So essentially you start to obey based on an emotional state versus hey, this guy kidnapped me. It starts to become more of like a understanding, if that makes sense, between the two people.

unknown 1:17:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:42

It becomes more of a cohesive relationship more than a captor capture or captor capture e relationship where there would be a lot of animosity, I would assume, from the captore to the captor. This sort of this this syndrome sort of describes the softening of that behavior.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:01

So it's an interesting notion to understand from like there could have been some kids that were in this experiment that completely adopted the prisoner lifestyle because that's what they were told to do. They were feeding into the you know, the illusory of being a prisoner. Some people rebelled and said, This is bullshit. I don't really want to be here, this is not what I signed up for and decided to go the other way. It's an interesting experiment from the standpoint that you took these kids that were, like they said, quote unquote normal individuals, whatever the hell that means, that's subjective, obviously. They were hippies. And they but but from a from a mental standpoint, they were quote unquote deemed it's the word I'm looking for fit, I guess, to withstand the experiment. But they didn't like I think I think it's definitely an argument that things I think it's definitely an argument that things got out of hand, but at the same time, they were trying to mimic what a real prison was looking. So it's it's sort of a line you got to tiptoe.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:57

Yeah. I I personally think they kind of got a group of pussies together.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:03

Like I told you though, Dan, we'd have it where there's speculation that we haven't seen all of the evidence. Correct. 100%. So you have to take that into account.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:10

You can't just take it as well I agree with that. I agree with that. One percent. So like it's this fine line of like a bunch of well, and here's the thing, too. Supposedly they flipped the coin for all these kids, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:19:23

That's what I yeah, that's what I understand.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:25

So so they took a whole group of hippies. It's not like they took half hippies and half not or half criminals, whatever. Like you took a whole entire group of hippies and turned them into prisoners and guards. And I think when you got dude, you could have fucking flipped the entire thing and had the kids that were the prisoners turning the guards and the guards the prisoners, I think you would have had the same fucking notion though to be thinking about us. I think that would be the same result. Honestly, I think you'd have the same result.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:59

Wait, so you you think if the initial part of the experiment where they were chosen, it would have been the same, or you're saying that if they were went through the prisoner process and then got turned into guards and the other the the guards turned into prisoners, that would be chaos.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:14

I think that if you took everybody from the beginning, if you flipped it, if you took all the kids that were the prisoners and tournament guards and the guards into prisoners, I think you would have had the same result, honestly. I I I do think you would have had the same result.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:31

I think that I mean I think that's up for interpretation. I don't know if we'd ever be able to prove that, obviously, because if no one would have to do that. Well, I don't think we'd there's no way to redo it, but I don't know. That would that would be very that would be based on that would be based on the personalities of the kids that you were introducing into the roles, I think.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:48

Again, because everything was done at random, like they did it at random to start it off with, you know, with the coin flips. I think that if they would have fucking mixed it up and and and all the prisoners were the guards and the guards were the prisoners, obviously with no previous experience experience if they just flipped it, I think you would have something that would probably be very similar. Not 100%, but I think you'd have something probably very similar and you'd have resistance because you're gonna have resistance no matter what. Because I experienced that when I was where I was, it's just inevitable. Didn't matter how nice we were, almost like here's the thing like kids are almost more manipulative than adults, and it no matter how nice, like what I learned was the more nice you were, the more manipulative those kids became. So it was kind of like listen, uh, this is my world, live in it, and if everything goes smooth and gravy, then we're gonna have a great time. And if you make my life a living hell, I'm gonna make your life an even more living hell. And I was 100% honest, and the kids respected that. I had kids that told me all the time, I you know, I'd ask them, like, how come you always listen to what I say, but when so-and-so tells you to do something, and I've told you this person off air, so is Brennan. But how come when I tell you to do something, you do it, but when that person tells you to do something, you fight with them, you argue with them, you fucking scream and yell and and make all these obscene gestures and blah blah blah. Well, because I know that you're not gonna give in. That'd be their thing. Like I I know that you're not gonna give in. I know that you know you're not you're not just gonna let me do what I want to do. You're ca you're consistent. They would always say you're consistent. And it was like, you know, the the counselees that would try to like be friends with these kids, the kids knew what they were doing. And if you don't think that it happens in real prison with adults, then you're a fucking idiot. Like it's worse with the adults, guaranteed. That's guaranteed worse with the adults.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:55

Well, the the follow-through is I think what most people respect is that if you follow through with what you're gonna say, whether it's good or bad, there's a little bit more of a respect factor with those types of people in that relationship than if you have somebody that tells you one thing and they do the complete opposite and fuck you over.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:09

Exactly. And I was consistent and it was like, hey, this is the way it is. When I'm here, I don't I don't know how it is when I'm not here, but when I'm here, this is the way it is. And you can like it, you can hate it, you can whatever, but it's gonna be fucking consistent, goddammit. So we're gonna do it this way when I'm here, and when Brennan's here, and when Kevin's whatever, when we're here, this is the way it's run. You have to make the adjustment to when we're not here, but when it's here, this is the way it's run, and they will test you. They will they will test you and test you and tell, but eventually you will get that fucking respect. But that respect doesn't happen overnight and doesn't happen after a month or two. That respect happens over a long period of time. So the other thing that I want to say about this experiment was this experiment was six fucking days. Okay, that's nothing. That's nothing. In the gram scheme of things, I mean, for fuck's sake, that's that's that's nothing. You're talking about kids kids. I say kids, okay. We're not gonna talk about fucking adults in the prison system, but where I was at, kids. You're talking about kids that are there for six m you know, six months, six days is nothing. And I've seen kids that were very mentally strong that broke. I saw kids that were very quiet, that never really wanted to talk, that it took four months for them to talk, literally, to open up. Eventually they would. But I will tell you this those kids can sniff out the staff that were fake as fuck very quickly. They could tell very quickly if you really cared about them or if you were just there for a paycheck.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:55

Well, because a lot of those kids were the lot of the kids will use the vocal aspect of trying to intimidate, but there's also the nonverbal stuff that can happen too, where they're just observing. So that's where that comes from, I think.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:07

Yeah, 100%. And they, you know, they could tell who was actually there because they cared and who was there for the paycheck. And if you were there for the paycheck, you weren't gonna last there very long. And I was not there for the paycheck.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:22

Yeah, one of the one of the one of the questions I would love to ask the people that were involved in this experiment, whether they were a guard or a prisoner, because it probably happened on both sides. What you're talking about is like who can I fuck with, who can I can't? And I wonder what their answers would be. Like if you line them all up side by side, if you had the guards, however many there were over here, had the prisoners over here and asked each one down the line on their respective sides, hey, which person could you fuck with and push the envelope a little bit more with, or which ones were you scared of to do that? You know what I mean? It would be an interesting conversation. Because then you're getting into the whole personality and the psychology aspect of who are really affected, who is who wasn't affected at all, and who's somewhere in the middle. I think that would be an interesting commentary between those people. I mean, that would be interesting. And their general outlook on each individual that they had to answer to or not answer to, depending on what side you're on.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:10

100%. And I you know, that would be interesting. Um the thing that I saw from that documentary, at least from the film that we saw, you know, none of the guards hit the prisoners, and none of the prisoners hit the guards. I'm gonna tell you right now, that is not how that shit rolls. Guards get hit, you can talk to Brenn. He's been hit, choked, choked out, and almost got really fucked up because of him. Um you know, it was not great. And on on the vice versa, you got guards that'll hit kids, hit adults, whatever. I mean, you like, dude, you're like my whole thing was like you're in the system, whether you agree with it or not, you better fucking learn to adapt to it, because the worst thing you can do is try to fucking resist.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:01

But I think it's what I mean, like, yeah, I think it poses a question too, is that like since we're talking about different personalities and different perspectives and all that kind of stuff. I think it would be interesting for you guys as listeners to put you guys in the like see where you sort of sit on the spectrum as far as a guard or prisoner. Like, which one do you feel more comfortable with? I think that's an interesting question. And I'll sort of pose it myself. I would want to be the one controlling the ship.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:27

Uh controlling the ship is is deaf I wouldn't want to listen, dude.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:31

I I don't really like to be told what to do. I don't really sit well with that, and it's not because of a comp it's not because of like a because I don't want to look like a bitch, it's just because it's not how I'm built. Mm-hmm. I'm very into having control over my life. It's why I'm agnostic. I don't think that anything has really anything. I mean, I think there's something above me, but it I do also believe that I have free will and the ability to do what I want to do and live how I want to live. I don't think I would do well as a prisoner. I think of anything where I would I would probably be the person revolting. There's no way I would just go with it. It would be really tough for me. In that scenario now if it was like a real if it was a real world scenario where there were like dire consequences and I wasn't just playing a role for 14 days it was a little it would be a little bit different. But in that scenario I definitely want the control.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:20

If someone's like hey you're gonna go to fucking court and possibly get another six months right you might I think I'll just play ball. Dude that's the best thing you can do honestly is like I've seen kids that just fight it and fight the system and fight it, fight it, fight it, and they're they they end up being there longer than if they would have just like because at the end of the day they end up doing it anyway. Right. That's the thing they either end up doing it anyway or they get kicked out and they get to sent to a a place that's way worse than what we were I mean we're we're we were literally the best goddamn placement that you could go to that wasn't gonna fuck with you as long as you did like we really prided ourselves on rehabilitation not causing any more trauma because these kids already have trauma. They got enough trauma they don't need any more and like really really really really really really doing the you know rehabilitation getting them into the and you know I think the hardest thing for me to accept which I had to accept this when I was coaching in the hood the the biggest thing you gotta accept is the fact that you're not gonna save every kid and that sucks.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:40

Yeah no it does suck. That that That's the hardest realization to come to is that you're gonna put effort into somebody that might not come out the other side and that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:48

Yeah and it but it dude like you can say that's okay but when like you get to know these kids and you're talking to their parents and you're talking to them every day and you're working with them every day and like that's your life and like that is very hard.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:02

Not saying anything is okay with that kid taking one route versus the other yeah no it's just it's very hard you can all you can do is put forth the effort and I think both of you and I can agree and I think probably a lot of people would agree that everybody has the ability to do what they're gonna do. You can give somebody direction you can give somebody the ability to do something the monetary aspect all of that kind of stuff. If they don't want to do the work or they don't want to put forth the effort that's not necessarily your fault and it shouldn't be handled as your fault. It's not it's it's I never took it as my fault but like you can't take it you can take it personally but you can't be if you genuinely try to do what you could for said person in that predicament you can at least feel somewhat good about yourself that you tried.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:47

100% but it's still hard to watch that especially when it's a kid it's hard to watch that kid make that bad decision and see them fail and like you know that they have the capability to change to do good to make the right decision but they just fucking choose not to like it's just so hard to see them self-destruct and then after they realize they fucked up you know they want to talk and it's like you just having the same fucking discussion over and over again.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:21

It's a hard place to be there's a hard place to be that if it's not making if it's not making a change then how far do you really want to take it?

SPEAKER_01 1:31:29

There's a kid but as a professional you gotta take it as far as you can like there's a But that's my point is that there's a point of no return with some people.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:36

Yeah. That's just how it happens.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:38

Yeah 100% and like there's a kid that you have heard Brandon I talk about that I'm not gonna mention right now but like he's currently well I I haven't worked there in almost a year and I you know I have gotten calls from this kid and I've talked to him and he still is not making the correct decisions. And he just he's his own goddamn worst enemy and I I I have told him now that you know I will help him but only if I hear good results from Brennan and other people on the floor. I wish he's not on the floor anymore because he already fucked up big time so he's on Gen pop floor so I probably won't hear from him. But I told him before that happened that like you need to do these three steps and if you do these three steps then I'll make sure that A, B, and C happen, but I'm not doing anything until you prove to me that you know you're gonna make a conservative effort to do this shit. And it wasn't anything very difficult or very hard. It was just consistency and he's his own worst enemy. So unfortunately it is what it is. Doesn't hurt any less cause you know for me you know I would like to save every kid that I come in contact with that to it's not realistic. And that's something that I've had to accept unwillingly at a very young age and I've worked with as you know because you work with me coaching uh a lot of kids at Euclid that we coached. And we were young. I mean you gotta admit you and I were young when we were doing that and we got introduced to that and I think that's only one of the main reasons why I could do what I did at the place that I was at was because I had done done it for so long. And you were there with me and you experienced that shit. And when you see a kid fail it's not easy. When you see the good in them but they just can't fucking get it right. I've seen a bunch of different levels I also coach college football. I'm sure you've seen it you know college basketball and playing professional basketball I'm s I'm sure you have seen your fair share of guys that for whatever reason just couldn't fucking get it right. It's just kind of hard to watch that self-destruct.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:48

It's at a certain point like I said with the with that testament sometimes you just have to let it self-destruct.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:55

100% there's there's it's hard it's harder to watch when they're way younger than when they're older obviously but I mean watching that self-destruct but at the same time there's a handful and I'm sure you've witnessed this too where there's a handful of those kids that self-destruct destruct and yet it's the best goddamn thing that ever happened to them.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:18

I think the trick is with what you're talking about and I'll sort of boil it down to a sentence or two you can't self-destruct with the self-destructing you cannot detriment your own well being because it's going to destroy you if you do with somebody that just blatantly doesn't want to do anything about their situation. If you have somebody constantly constantly constantly constantly complaining to you about how their their life sucks if you're a part of that life which makes it even worse you start to have this self-fulfilling prophecy of like hey I'm the problem or anything like that. Well that's that's almost like like marriage relationship well that's what I'm saying is that all of it sort of encompasses the same thing though is that if you have because there are some people some people keep it very objectively based when they deal with kids in in like forming youth and reforming youth and all that kind of stuff that you're talking about some people like yourself take it very very personally.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:11

That's the difference right is to find the medium where you're objective and subjective at the same time for the certain things that you're trying to accomplish with said subject. That's the trick.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:20

Yeah you know like with any relationship because it it is a relationship with those kids it's it's it's if you're a warden it's a relationship with those prisoners like you gotta find a happy medium. It can't be all busting balls but it can't be all kiss my ass either no you gotta find a very happy medium you gotta find a way to and then like the best counselors the best counselors are the ones that and and here's the thing everyone at Summit always you know told me that like I was phenomenal and I had such a high my like the roof was so high the ceiling was so high blah blah blah. I didn't feel that and the reason I didn't feel that is because I just I felt like I was mediocre. I felt like I was okay I didn't feel like I was exceptionally phenomenal because I just did what I thought was expected and I did what I what what I've done my whole entire life with coaching um was give you know treat every kid like they were a part of my own and if they fucked up, fell short, whatever, I was going to tell them and be 100% honest and I was going to hold them accountable. But and here's the thing that a lot of coaches and people in that that system forget is that if you're going to take a kid okay if you're gonna take a kid and you're going to and I'm sure you can understand this with basketball and in your career if you're gonna take a kid, a person, whatever, and you're going to tear them down because they fuck up, because they make a mistake, whatever, whether they didn't block the right person or they didn't fall back in the right defense or they didn't make the right pass or or shot decision whatever. If you're gonna do that and you're gonna criticize the fuck out of them for making the wrong decision, then you fucking better love them up and build them up when they make the right decision. You got to big it up twice as much. You have to build them up and love them up when they do it right.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:27

No but you but I would even make I if you're gonna lay into them like some people do, you have to big it up and be like the chest bump motherfucker when they come off the field or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:37

Yes, yes, yes, yes. So you agree with me on that?

SPEAKER_02 1:37:40

No I think you need to do it twice as good. If you're gonna really rip into somebody and be honest with them and kick their dick in the dirt you need to do it twice as good when they do well. Yes. Because it's gonna be so much more yes it can't be the same thing. It's gonna be like you can't get a high five and a smack on the ass for doing the exact same thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:59

No no no no no you can't you can't you can't it can't be you're gonna tear this kid fucking down for missing a block or not dropping back in coverage and then when he does the right thing hey good job just you know whatever you gotta you have to you have to if you're gonna be exorbitantly profound in the negative you have to be exorbitantly profound in the positive too. Does that make sense? Yeah that's been my philosophy that like that's I've seen more positivity come from doing that but also but also I will say this if that's not your personality you can't fake it you can't fake that that's fair you have to be genuine in that yeah if you're gonna big up I'm like it can't be coming from a false place like it no but that's where like that's where if you're really gonna invest in a kid or an individual if you're coming from that standpoint that just sort of comes with the territory if you're that type of personality. I think it's just sort of natural that also comes with okay maybe the head coach is a fucking hard ass right and the head coach is going to get up your ass but then if you're gonna have a head coach that's gonna be the fucking bad cop then you have to have that assistant coach that coordinator whatever that's gonna be that good cop yeah you can't just have a whole staff of assholes right yeah I completely agree with that. So but that's I'm I I tend to be the one where it's like listen I'm gonna rip you a fucking new asshole when you fuck up but the second you do something good like this is what like when I was interviewing for for a couple positions that I was applying for this year this I talked about like if I'm gonna rip you for fucking up and making the wrong decision when you make the correct fucking choice I'm going to love you up like no one else has love you up. Like I think that's that's how I've always been and that's how I'll always be whether it's a position coach a coordinator job or a head coaching job and I've been a coordinator you know I've been a position coach obviously I've been a coordinator I've been a warden counselor specialist whatever same thing it it didn't matter whether I was coaching or whether I was dealing with kids in the in the system when they made the right decision fucking love them up when they fuck up let them know they fucked up and they need to fucking do better.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:14

And you correct it and correct it constructively versus giving them just the fact that they fucked up there's got to be something behind it to move them forward or progress from the state that they're in. Yeah and let them know like okay like you fucked up but this is where you fucked up and this is how to fix it.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:29

Yeah yeah absolutely like hey here's the standard okay you came down here right we didn't fucking meet the standard here's how we correct that and and get back up to the fucking standard okay all right and you know some kids it's gonna take some time some like you're not like you're not gonna and I I had to learn this a hard way you're not gonna save everybody kid you're not gonna save every kid you're not gonna save every person that's in the prison system. But guess what you can fucking put forth a good valent effort to try to get as many as you fucking can I agree so you know this was a test that was done. I personally think it could have done better but given the time period it was done um I don't think a lot of people understood what prison really was especially the group that they fucking got you know they said that they did a a personality test and they did all this shit. They might have done a personality test but I mean they couldn't have gotten a more fucking oxymoron group to be a part of this.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:31

I'd be interested to see what the test looked like how extensive it was and what it focused on and that kind of thing. How how generalized it was if it was just like a a run of the mill like you said you and I have taken intro to psychology like was it just a run of the mill personality test or did it actually go into like what they're actually about cognitive it would be interesting. There's a lot of parameters that we didn't go into in the episode but yeah I think all in all it's an interesting experiment. I think it was it is if anything if anything from what we saw and what we were able to learn about it it would be a lot it would be definitely something that I would want to dive deeper into because I haven't it would be very interesting to see um how it would happen nowadays. Yeah this is the the experiment these days would be a lot would be a lot different. Yeah yeah I think with like I don't know I don't know how it could go one of a coup it could go a couple ways depending on depending on who you got because I think that was the I think that was the biggest thing with this experiment is that the it was the it was the sample group of the sample data that they had. If you took let's let's say it was let's say it was 18 people total both guards and prisoners if you took 18 other people it might have turned out completely different.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:41

It might have turned out completely different you know statistically you're gonna have at least one person who's been a part of the system. So the fact that they they try to make it that nobody was a part of the system being a guard or a prisoner or anything that you know part of prison is you get there and you kind of have this come to Jesus moment whether you're a new guard because I've seen new guards get there and it is not for them. I've seen new prisoners get there new kids whatever and I mean I'm not gonna say his name on here but there's a there's a kid right right off the bat that just I mean he was bawling his eyes out crying for the first like three fucking days straight straight three days whole day he did was fucking cry all three days um you know his phone calls are very important to him like most of the kids phone calls are very important to them but it's just something it's tough man.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:41

I think it's all based on the personality like I said if you took 18 different people and put them in you could take the same personality test just take a different sample group from the sample group that you had put 18 fresh people in there and do the experiment over again it would be different in some form or fashion.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:55

Oh absolutely and like the floors are so different. So like first floor the most kids I had on first floor at one time I think was like 16 okay and there were three of us so it was Brian Joe and me and there was there were 16 kids that's what six six kids what was the what was the math again sorry it was uh it was sixteen kids and there were three staff.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:19

Sixteen kids to three staff so you would have eight times three would be twenty four. Yeah it's it's basically a three to one I would think like six to yeah it's it's a three to one it's a little skewed because yeah but it's essentially a th three to one or two to one depending on what you look at.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:35

So then I went to gym pop and it was we had four staff to forty kids. So you said you had you said you had eighteen said you had eighteen people total we had on first floor at one point I think the highest we got to was three staff and sixteen kids. So if you had sixteen kids so if you had sixteen kids so yeah it was almost a four to one and then because if you would have had sixteen and four counselors it would have been a four to four it would be yeah right so then when I went to Gen pop it was at at our highest point we had 40 kids and four staff. So you're talking about more than double that with one person. Yeah it'd be kind of crazy it was crazy yeah it was crazy and that's when like you you think to yourself every night like man if shit pops off if tonight's the night it's gonna be fucked up.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:32

Yeah the the whole experiment I think as a whole it was it was a very acute version of that type of system but you could see some aspects of the stuff that we saw in the documentary and all that stuff where it was yeah it was a very very like light example of what that lifestyle is like yeah I don't I don't think it was a very good representation just me personally I think it was very light it was very you know I think you can't like you didn't even have any prisoners swing on a guard.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:06

Like you get to prison you get the actual prison like we had several kids swing on us. That's kids. It's not even adults like choked out swung on fucking spit on I've been spit on like you just there I don't know it was just very mild.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:25

Well I would say also from somebody yours is a little bit more of an extreme view because you've actually lived it yeah I lived it's both of these both of the scenarios both roles were thrown into this with no context and just said go. Yeah and said like all right who's gonna turn into the asshole right who's gonna be the who's gonna be the fuck ass that's gonna fuck everything up who's gonna be the quiet one who's gonna be the medium all that kind of shit.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:48

Wilch Wilch let's be honest the guards have more of a chance to be the fucking assholes.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:52

Well 100% so but I think that's the interesting point is that there was sort of like a throw them into the room this is your role and go. Figure it the fuck out. Yep. So yeah like I said with with the episode it was I think a really interesting episode we touched on a lot of stuff that's personal to you.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:09

Very interesting very interesting. But we also went into a lot of the science and the psychology of stuff and sort of extrapolated that figured that out too Yeah no it it it it hits home and it you know I mean it's it's different than what I dealt with just because they were dealing with adults and I dealt with uh you know adolescents children.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:29

But uh you know it's still in the grand scheme of things it's still kind of like the same same it's just an interesting dynamic to take people that don't know necessarily the whole picture of what they're going to be experiencing and having it unfold literally in real time.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:45

Well I mean you take you take what the existence is of human life and you strip them of their rights. You have very little rights, you know like you're entitled to essentially to eat, to drink water and to sleep. At the end of the day that's all you got you you you gotta eat, drink water and you get a little bit of sleep. That's it. You're gonna shit when we tell you you're gonna piss when we tell you you're gonna wake up when we tell you you're gonna go to bed when we tell you you're gonna fucking eat when we tell you and you're gonna like it.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:19

And if you don't like it there's an answer to that one too.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:22

Yeah tough shit. Yeah because they didn't even use their fucking batons. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:26

I think the closest thing I think of the closest thing I saw was when they went on like the hunger strike with the the thing that we saw where you slapped the table with it.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:33

Yeah yeah I mean dude listen guys get fucked up but regardless regardless I think it was an interesting episode.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:43

Yeah it was very I hope I hope you guys got something out of it it was something interesting for us to talk about because I we both sort of learned about it we sort of knew we knew the general outline of what happened but we didn't know how intricate it got how it affected all these people and the people that were on both sides of the of the scenario it affected whether they were a guard or a prisoner but like I said I think it's an interesting dynamic to put you guys you know if you guys want to comment on the episode tell us where you sort of sit do you sort of sit with the guard do you sit with the prisoners which one would you take and why and that kind of thing because it's it's it's interesting because it's all going to be based on how you handle that situation or the role with your personality and the type of person you are. Me being a guard versus Dan being a guard is completely different dynamic depending on who you're talking to. It might be a little bit similar because we've been friends for so long we sort of think alike but that kind of stuff but if you really took it acutely and got down to like what we actually believe in that kind of stuff it might get a little bit different depending on who you're talking to.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:37

Until you're in that situation you have no clue who you're gonna be but maybe that's the point of the expansion that that might be that might be that might be but um I hope you guys enjoyed the episode and I don't know if you have any final thoughts on a plug the socials and then we'll we'll we'll wrap. No just just you know there's a lot that goes into this shit. It's very easy To judge one way or the other. Just know that there are a lot of good people that are trying to help those kids out and prisoners out. There are really good people that dedicate their life to trying to help rehabilitate people into, you know, this lifestyle because I've seen it firsthand. There are a lot of kids out there that unfortunately get dealt a shitty hand of life, and the adults fail them and they get into the system. And uh, you know, they don't deserve it. No kid, no child deserves that. Well, I think you could also we fail short.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:35

I think that you could also make the argument from the kids' point of view or the prisoner's point of view is there's just genuine people out there that don't have direction in their life, they fall into a bad situation, they fall in with the wrong people, all that kind of stuff by no fault of their own. And then they're able to go through the reform, they're able to go through a summit, they're able to go through the penile system, they're able to go through all of this stuff and come out a better human being than they were when they first got in there because they have the directions.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:59

Yeah, yeah. Like there's a lot of success stories out there, and you know, you you just again, it bothers the ever-living fuck out of me because I got told when I first took that fuck, I got told when I first started coaching with Jeff, you're not gonna save every kid. And I want to save every kid. It's hard to watch a kid self-destruct. It's really hard to watch a kid self-destruct. It's really hard to watch a kid fucking just lose all motivation and and and everything. But you're not gonna save every kid. But the best thing you can do is to just show them the path, show them good habits. They gotta make their own decision and and and sometimes they're not gonna make the good decision. Sometimes they're gonna make a bad decision. And that's hard because you can see the good in 'em. You can you can see the good in them, and unfortunately they can't see the good in themselves. But there's a lot of good success stories out there. And I got a lot of kids out there that hopefully one day we can have on this show that could talk about that, because I think it would be very good for other people to hear their story and to hear their success and to hear what they had to go through, and the trials and tribulations of going through the placement uh system and and the good parts and the bad parts and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:19

So if you're gonna come out of a situation like that where you're put into that environment, you're you're gonna go through some things that are gonna change you as a person. I think that's just a fact.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:29

Whether it's good, bad, and different, it's gonna change you and make you either a better or bad person. But you have full control over that dynamic, I think. That's what a lot of people forget. Is that you I fervently believe that you have control over your own destiny and your own life. Yeah. To a certain degree. There are maybe some things that are aligned that you can't change, but you can at least alter the perception of how you get to those and you know, get to those instances. Like I said, um, great episode. I hope you guys enjoyed it. Make sure to comment if you guys have uh any kind of ideas because we're still looking for ideas. We're sort of like coming out the top each week. He and I sort of take turns in what we're gonna do as far as episode uh content, but this is one that I came up with. I thought it was a really interesting conversation. We've sort of fleshed out as much as we possibly can with this, and we've gone down a couple rabbit holes too, which is always cool. Um if you guys are unfamiliar, we do have I forgot to plug it at the beginning of the episode. We do have an X account and we do have an Instagram account. It's just at ObscureCast.com, or at ObscureCast rather for the handle if you're doing an X.com or Instagram. So we hope you guys enjoyed the episode. Like I said, like, comment, share. We're also on Apple Music as well as Spotify. So if you can't listen on Spotify, you can't listen on Apple. We're on both platforms, so that should line up at least for most of, if not all of you. But like I said, we'll see you guys in the next episode. And thank you guys so much for listening. We appreciate it. We'll talk to you guys later. See you guys.